What if the Ali who beat Cleveland Williams fought the Frazier of FOTC?

I wouldnt consider a fighter "shot" if he won 3 of his last 5 fights let alone 4--especially if they go on to win their very next couple of fights. You cant have it both ways. People just throw out random terms and catchphrases without knowing what they mean or ignore the context.

 

Are you kidding me..That doesn't even make sense

 

I doesn't make sense that if Ali as a 29-year old was slightly bigger and therefore stronger in 1971, in your opinion, that wouldn't apply to a slightly bigger 29-year old Frazier of the rematch 1974? And even more so in the third, where Frazier was 10 lbs heavier than in the first?

 

Look at the physiques man. That alone tells you the difference. Ali filled out thicker and more muscular. He looked stronger in 71 than he did in 67 IMO whereas Frazier just got softer and heavier. Ali added muscle with his weight. Joe didnt. I've said this befor just because 2 guys are the same age doesn't mean they have aged the same. Not too hard to comprehend. I'm really surprised your using this as an example.

 

I'm really surprised you think Ali looked stronger in '71. I think he looked softer and weaker. Which also seems very reasonable since he only had six months to regain muscles that had wasted away for 3,5 years.

He was the same weight, 215, for Chuvalo in 1966, due to a very short training camp, but I think his muscle tone still was clearly more pronounced then than in 1971,

 

They said at the start of the FOTC that Ali's weight was "Redistributed". I think that is correct.
Ali was only 3 lbs. heavier, but you can see that he was leaner in every fight in the '60's. So he added a little body fat too.
So I do not think he could have had more muscle-lucky if he had the same amount.
He must have gained a little upper body mass, & part of the reduction in speed & endurance might have been related to losing lower body mass.

Having a bit more upper body strength did not nearly compensate for the lost endurance & speed (especially of foot).
And while he recovered much of his accuracy after FOTC-& even then landed more punches than Frazier, though clearly lost...
He clearly was a better fighter when he hit his prime in the '60's.

 

I agree with the concept, but though Ali was a bit lighter for Chuvalo 1.
Lo & behold, though a tale of the tape says 212, box rec says 214 & 1/2.
Of all the distortions in measurements, you think that this on would be consistent.

 

The announcer says 214,5 when he introduces Ali, so Boxrec seems to have it right. To me there's no doubt that Ali looks more trim there than he did at 215 in FOTC.

And, as I keep repeating, this seems very logical. If you run and train daily for many years with intense training camps thrown into the mix and then you drastically cut down on that for 3,5 years to maybe only going to the gym once in a while if that, six months seems unlikely to be enough to recover the strength and endurance you lost, much less enhance them.

And also this discussion is a bit moot anyhow. Speed and timing is important for every fighter, but Ali's style revolved around those more than almost any other fighter, as well as stamina to keep moving and fully utilizing his foot speed. Ali would have had to develop top notch KO power to compensate for the decline of the assets his style depended on, and we can at least all agree that didn't happen, can't we?

 

I actually agree with those that say prime Ali often is overrated in fantasy match-ups. We can't know for sure of course, but he probably is. Many posters believe he'd run rings against opponents who brought things to the table that he never really experienced in his career, amazing as it was. I'm far less sure about that.

But this is different in that it isn't wildly hypothetical by any means. For me it's pretty straightforward. If fighter A loses to fighter B in an epically brutally hard fought fight 6 months after a 3,5 year lay-off, my guess would be every time that fighter A would have won that fight before the lay-off.

 

I don't think Frazier would have ever been an easy fight for Ali. Chuvalo had his moments against a prime Ali. So Frazier would have still been a challenge.

 

It wasn’t likely that any weaknesses would be exposed, considering that he was fighting guys like Brian London, ancient Foley, bkeeding Cooper and injured Williams!

 

Ehhh you make a good point. He was still a freak of nature at that period of time. He would have performed better against Frazier before the exile no doubt.

 

Ali owned Chuvalo,Georgie won just 2 rds, those that Ali allowed him to pound on him. Frazier would always have been a tough fight ,but imo prime Ali beats him everytime.
A ring rusty Ali ruined Frazier according to Joe's fanboys,what would a prime Ali have done to him?

 

I agree that it would always be a tough fight. I think it would have been a dogfight each time. I believe the style blend in a way that the outcome would be very much in doubt.
The FOTC was an epic fight with great action. It was a clear Frazier win though. If Ali was a shade quicker and he moved more maybe he takes a close decision. Maybe a draw. Maybe a closer Frazier win.
Ali didn't have the punching power to consistantly back Joe up. If Ali moved more he could win a few more rounds but it would be less of a brutal fight.
One thing that gets glossed over is that Ali underestimated Frazier. He wasn't impressed with what he saw from outside the ring. It took FOTC for Ali to learn Frazier. He was able to comeback and apply them in Fights 2 and 3. He paid to learn though.