No, Norton's actual weight was around 225-230. He did extreme drying out to get down to 210 to gain his incredible stamina then rehydrated: This content is protected Foreman and Ali wouod do the same thing. Foreman weighed as much as 230 as an amateur 19 year old without an ounce of fat. Ike wasn't significantly "bigger". You are literally saying "fighter A is X lbs heavier, therefore he's physically stronger". So the obese heavyweight version of James toney is stronger tjan foreman too according to you? What actual evidence do you have Ike was stronger other than being a few lbs heavier?
But Norton was 212 lbs when Foreman destroyed him. Ike was 244 lbs when he obliterated Byrd. Toney was a small framed fat midget for a heavyweight division, Ike was one of the most jacked heavyweight boxers the division has seen. Ike was 244 lbs against Byrd, and Foreman was 217 lbs against Frazier, so that's more like 30 lbs of muscle more, instead of few lbs like you suggest. That's my evidence.
No, your evidence is literally "he was jacked and heavier, therefore he was stronger". Question: have you ever done wrestling or jiu jutsu before? Because if you did youd know that argument is dumb. Ive seen plenty of guys who had shreddded muscles and got tapped out and outmuscled by lean guys and even fat guys. Same thing in football. Your argument has no basis in reality. Unless youve got some actual stats for Ike's weight lifting numbers this argument is very flimsy. Roughing up ex middleweight Chris byrd is impressive but tossing Norton and lyle around is "meh"? Then you proceed to use foreman's lowest weight and pick one of ike's heaviest. This is typical low balling. Are you even trying?
Jacked and heavier - stronger, yes indeed. Every person is gonna be stronger with more muscles. You do know that in grappling there is an important skill aspect, don't you?? You do know that there are also weight classes in grappling, and the heaviest weight class in wrestling is limited to - 130 kg in greco roman? It seems to me that they do understand the importance of size and strength. I listed weights for Ike and Foreman from their most impressive perfomances, and the weight difference is significant, not few lbs like you suggested. Since you mentioned grappling, there is a video on youtube where Renzo Gracie says that every 10 kg of size difference is like a one level in belt. If you train grappling, that is.
Foreman was 224 for Norton and he weighed in with clothes and boots on, he probably weighed 5-7 pounds less without the clothes and boots. In the Foreman exhibition with the 5 different sparring partners Cosell mentions that Foreman weighs around 230-32 and is obviously overweight and out of shape. Foreman weighed 217 because that is what he weighed, he didn't dry out for fights. That's ridiculous. https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/foreman-weighed-in-for-norton-in-street-clothes.595898/
This content is protected Ike Tua highlights. I stand corrected. The fellas was pitching Heat!!! Caution...don't open this video with any children around or even females.
We're not talking about the skill involved in grappling. Obviously you need skill to become good at it. The point is being shredded doesnt automatically mean youre stronger. We are simply discussing foreman's physical strength vs Ike's. Your refusal to accept this proves that youve obviously never done any sort of strength based competition. Explain this video: This content is protected Over a 100 pound weight difference and the much smaller guy wins. I'll give you a personal example: had a friend from college who sat around all day, 50 lbs overweight, had flabs, moobs, double chin, etc. Never did a single sport or strength based exercise in his life. We were bored one day and decided to arm wrestle. Mind you at the time i could bench at leasr 240 and was doing boxing, jiu jitsu, hundreds of pushups and situps a day, etc. Somehow this lazy shiftless bum stalemated me in arm wrestling. Neither of us could budge for a good 5 minutes--he was that strong despite zero strength training whatsoever. The only physical activity he did was working at a warehouse full time so underneath the fat he had "wirey" strength from moving and lifting things. The point of that story (and i have dozens of similar examples) is that big jacked muscles does not = the stronger man between 2 individuals. You have literally nothing to support your argument other than the fact ike was heavier. No weight lifting records, pushup/sit up routines, dumbbells, zilch. Manhandling chris Byrd is not enough evidence to give ike the benefit of the doubt simply because he was heavier. Speaking of weight, i already addressed foreman being 217. First of all that was the lowest weight he had in his prime. If you were being honest you'd take his averages. Second, as i said, some 70's heavyweights would cut weight like the lower weight classes. Foreman's actual "size" is deceptive.
Usually this mathematics works out. Not always though. 1) Foreman was 224 vs. Norton, I will pick that as his peak fight. In many fights he was famously dehydrated at Saddler's suggestion. Ike wqs 235 vs. Tua, sometimes heavier. But I see no evidence that Ike was lower body fat. They were similar. 2) Sometimes a man with less muscle is stronger, due to the type of muscle fibers & things like proportions & leverage. But even if Ike was stronger in the weight room, that does not mean he was necessarily finctionally stronger in the ring. In things like pushing, & certainly not in punching. Though Foreman did rely on a strength advantage in his fights.
Very nice post, GCC, see mine on the subject. That arm wrestling video-the dude had very near 200 lbs. on him. Though it is also largely technique, & the 400 + world's strongest man winner is obviously much stronger overall... It shows that suscular size is not everything. Though correlated with strength, you gotta consider muscle fibers, leverages, techniques, etc... Though why the due made the giant look in his eyes, actually tapping him on the shoulder during a match, is a mystery to me. Does not seem sporting.
Where is the evidence for freakish Foreman strength? Didn't look so strong when he faced Lyle. Ibeabuchi looks stronger than Lyle - bigger and more muscular. You are talking about arm wrestling? Devon would get manhandled by a strongman in a grappling match, just because of huge size and strength difference. Why didn't you post a video where he gets destroyed by Cyplenkov, mainly cause of Cyplenkov's size and strength advantage? These strongmans have a lot of muscle behind that fat. If they would lose some fat, they would look jacked. Did you see how jacked Savickas looked when he lost some weight? What I'm trying to say is that every lbs is important for strength, especially if it is lean muscle. Ibeabuchi being bigger and more jacked than Foreman suggests to me him being the stronger man and neglecting Foreman's best attributes- size and strength.
But did Smith have more functional strength in a boxing ring? Joe Frazier was flat out benching a cotton bud and a dire athlete yet he pole axed dozens of "stronger" guys, better athletes.
Jesus Christ, so Foreman wasn't "that strong" now? I've posted this here before but Evander Holyfield was asked at a speaking engagement (it was posted here by another person originally) who was the strongest fighter he faced. Evander recounted that he had a little tactic where he'd test the strength of an opponent by moving them back in a clinch. He said the only guy he couldn't budge was Foreman because he was simply too big and strong. This from a man who fought behemoths like Lewis, Bowe, Rahman, Valuev etc. This probably doesn't make it official but surely it reinforces that Foreman was a legitimately strong guy.
Foreman from the Holyfield fight was 40 lbs bigger and did strength training unlike the 217 lbs version that destroyed Frazier which is the version we are talking in this topic
What does "functional strength in a boxing ring" consist of, in your opinion? Unless you're defining it as knowing how to fight or hit hard, I don't see any reason at all to believe Foreman would have more of it than Bruce Smith. Frazier poleaxed people through his ability to throw very hard hooks relentlessly and explosively.
