Who is The Greatest Asian Fighter of All time???

I find this question dishonest and a diversionary tactic, being that Sweet Pea IS DISCUSSING THIS WITH YOU in another thread right now.

PacD this is why you simply don't have the moral authority to be dictating that people debate with you. When you get stuck, or you lose a debate, you simply won't conceed or will say something immature as in what you did yesterday.

 

If you know the score on Harada it is unreasonable to say Pac.

He beat Eder Jofre twice, beat Pone Kingpetch twice, beat Jose Medel, beat Johnny Famechon, beat Hiroyuki Ebihara, beat Dwight Hawkins, beat Bernardo Caraballo, beat Antonio Herrera, beat Alan Rudkin, beat Katsutoshi Aoki.

Whatsmore he beat all these guys in or around their primes (Jofre was a little past his best, Ebihara a little before his).

He should have been a three weight champion in the days when there were only 9 weight divisions and no ABC **** like there is today.

I'd pick Kingpetch or Hiroyuki Ebihara to beat anyone Pac beat at or around flyweight.

I'd pick Eder Jofre to beat anyone Pac beat at or around bantamweight.

And I'd pick someone like Johnny Famechon to beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a clearer fashion than what Pac did. He'd probably shut Pac out too if he can avoid Pac landing a tide turning bomb.

 

I've seen footage of Johnny Famechon... No way in hell is he superior to a guy like Marquez.

I'm not going to sit and argue records. The footage is proof for itself.

 

It's not unreasonable to say Pacquiao objectively. I would pick alot of past fighters to beat Pacquiao. But they may not. And that is subjective. If we were to argue this, no one could ever win.

Pacquiao has won real world titles in 3 weight classes (112, 126, 130). He has limitations but also great strengths. I know the score on Harada well enough not to dismiss Pacquiao outright. If you do, that's certainly your right. I don't. Pacquiao can only beat who is in front of him. The era is different. And while I am the first to point out that his wins over Barrera and Morales get overrated by his fans, his run through the divisions and titles he has gathered by fighting the champions of those divisions is impressive enough for me to not dismiss him outright. And his strengths have allowed him to overcome his deficiencies in most cases. I feel that he has a place in the argument along with Elorde and Harada.

 

Getting within a couple of points of losing to Chris John is proof that someone with better stamina, a better jab and better inside fighting than John will give Marquez HELL.

 

Imagine Pac in front of Harada's comp. Give me a breakdown of how he fares.

 

That would be pointless IMO. You have already said that you feel that Harada and his competition would defeat Pacquiao. No matter what I said, you would counter in disagreement. There is no point in that.

Unless you are trying to surmise how much I know about Herada. In which case I offer to you that I have looked at his resume and his opponents resumes and their opponents resumes and seen limited footage of him. Thus the reason I said "I know the score well enough". I don't know a ton about him, but from what I have seen, it is not enough to dimiss Pacquiao from the discussion, even though I don't rank Pacquiao as the best Asian fighter ever.

I do believe Jofre would have beaten Pacquiao at 118 and 122 (if they fought there) based on styles with his boxing skills and ability to counter with such power. I believe Herada would defeat him as well. (Honestly his jab would disrupt Pacquiao's timing alot) But I cannot be sure of such things as Pacquiao is very good at his lower weights.

 

All fighters have bad perfomrances throughout their career.

Famechon was very very raw, and didn't have the style to pressure a guy like Marrquez. He would be picked apart from the outside with ease, against a much superior technical fighter.

Like i said, the proof is in the footage. I'm not going to argue resume with you. If you don't agree with me that is fine with me, just stating my opinion.

 

Fighting Harada.

 

Well, I am looking for reasoned opinion to make it "not unreasonable to say it's Pacquaio".

Since you believe it's not unreasonable to suggest that Pac is the greatest Asian fighter, I would like to hear what the reasonable arguments for it are, irrespective of whether you or I agree with them or not.

 

I feel that has already been given. A reasonable argument is based on what the fighters did in the ring, and I have given a brief overview of Pacquiao's accomplishments.

I am basing my opinion off of their records and who they have fought and beaten along with accomplishments. While I allow for skill level to come into play, I find it is too subjective to count for too much when making these types of comparisons. I have seen limited footage on Harada or even Elorde. But from what I have seen, while more skilled, I don't think that tells the entire story. Most of the good fighters Pacquiao has fought were more skilled than he. And Pacquiao has been a great fighter and overcome his deficiencies with his physical gifts. Taking this and his accomplishments into account, I don't feel that it is unreasonable to say he is the best Asian fighter ever, just incorrect. Unreasonable to me means that he shouldn't even be in the conversation. I don't find that to be true at all.

 

What are your reasons for thinking Marquez had an off night against John? What other fighters, of a similar ilk has Marquez picked apart with ease to make me believe that Marquez would simply pick apart a fleet footed jabber like Famechon?

I think Marquez works best as a counterpuncher, not someone that has to bring the fight and get off first in exchanges, which is what he would have to do against Famechon. He looked ordinary against John because of the styles imo. It's the same reason Salvador Sanchez looked ordinary against Pat Cowdell. A counterpuncher taken out of his comfort zone by a jabber with good movement.

Famechon will not be pressuring Marquez, that won't be his goal at all. But I think Marquez, who will be the one trying to press the fight, WILL have trouble pressuring Famechon.

You might think Famechon was raw but Famechon got within a couple of points of beating Vicente Saldivar, who is as good a boxer and a better pressure fighter than Marquez by far. Even when Saldivar did press him, Famechon held his own, and he actually finished the rounds the stronger against Saldivar, and this is against a guy noted for his barnstorming finishes.

 

It would help if you had seen more of Harada and his opponents when deciding whether it's reasonable or not that Pac should be in the same conversation with Harada. Looking at fighters records and snippets of footage only goes so far. Sometimes that's all we have to go by (together with fight reports), but in this case, there is footage out there of Harada and some of his opponents which would make you more informed here. Might not change your opinion ultimately, but it would make it more informed.

Your claim that it is reasonable that Pac should be regarded the best Asian fighter is reasonable given what you know.

For the record, I have seen the following fights which go towards my insight on this issue:

Harada vs. Jofre I & II
Harada vs. Medel I & II
Harada vs. Kingpetch I & II
Harada vs. Rose
Harada vs. Caraballo
Harada vs. Rudkin
Harada vs. Famechon I & II
Jofre vs. Medel I & II
Rose vs. Castillo
Rose vs. Olivares
Ebihara vs. Accavallo II
Ebihara vs. Kingpetch I & II
Ebihara vs. Torres II
Famechon vs. Saldivar
Famechon vs. Legra
Kingpetch vs. Perez I
Kingpetch vs. Seki
Kingpetch vs. Burruni

 

For people who haven't seen much of Harada here's a short clip of him against the great Flyweight Pone Kingpetch. This is one of Harada's best performances.

[yt]PgpMyeHSzO0[/yt]

Here's him again against another good fighter in Katsutoshi Aoki, here Harada demonstrates relentless pressure and killer instinct.

[yt]Jx8jRkJA2xQ[/yt]

 

You should inform yourself better before posting something like that. Let me help you :

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=11082&more=1

"In 1965, he would lose his WBC and WBA Bantamweight titles to Fighting Harada in a highly controversial SD in Nagoya, Japan. Harada would beat him again by a razor thin margin in Tokyo in 1966. "

Home town decision. Harada won 7 rounds at best in the first fight. The second one could easily be a draw or even a Jofre's win:

"Having become inured to the two controversial decisions in Japan, he fought his remaining bouts in Brazil."