Yes as Seamus has pointed out theres a lot of intellectual dishonesty going on here. Rocky doesnt "simply have to hit as hard as Ali". Im quite certain Frazier and Norton are on par or higher than Ali in raw power and especially Lyle. It was Ali's strategy, defensive skill, and willingness to take enormous punishment when he couldn't evade/parry/clinch that eventually presented him with the opportunity to Ko Foreman after thoroughly exhausting him. The implication of these dishonest posters is that the KO is simply there and ripe for the taking as long one hits as hard as Ali and that is by far one of the stupidest arguments ive seen in weeks.
You gotta love fairy tales. Now we have the Rockistas creating these fantastic scenarios where a 5 ft 10, 185 pound guy with slow feet and hands and no ability at all to fight going backwards will beat the Foreman who destroyed Frazier and Norton. I must be getting paranoid as well because the amount of " new " posters who have joined this site in the last two years and who only seem to appear when Marciano is mentioned seems to grow monthly. I have been pmsl while reading the various Marciano threads as they contain some of the worst posts I have ever read here. I have learned that Moore was better when he fought Marciano than Ali was vs Foreman. I have also learned that Rocky would somehow manage to avoid Foreman's punches and get to him late despite Foreman absolutely dwarfing him and despite the severe stylistic disadvantage Marciano is suffering from. I swear some posters are confusing Rocky Balboa with Marciano. They seem to think Marciano can turn into Jimmy Young just like Rocky changed his style to beat Clubber Lang. I now know that the 185 pound Marciano was stronger than the 205 pound Frazier and a guy who fought completely different to Smokin' Joe. This quote was a beauty " Lots of people must have thought things "wouldn't bode well" for Jimmy Young and Muhammad Ali against George Foreman. Both guys beat GF and decked him with right hands.Sure those guys were a different style to Rocky. So what.. " " So what " ? That post sums up the level of fantasy involved here. I swear Rocky can only be tamed by kryptonite and its obvious that he wasnt a mere mortal human being as he could have overcome obstacles that no fighter in history has been able to. Especially fighters with his style and physical dimensions. I have learned that its a toss up between the 190 pounds with a fat gut Moore and the 220 pound overtrained Foreman as far as punching power goes. I have learned that fighters like Rex Layne and Bob Baker were as good as fighters like Liston, Foreman and all the 215 pound plus guys that emerged from the 80s onwards. Its been very educational and a great laugh. Cheers All.
Good morning JT, I swear some of the fellas posting are just taking the **** or as the Poms put it " winding people up ". To misquote John McEnroe " they can't be serious ". The " big men " that Rocky didnt face like Valdes and Baker were no good but when Archie Moore faces them they turn into these monsters. Cheers Mate.
This man bumped a thread that hadn’t seen any action since 2014, yet people will still complain that Marciano fanboys start all these crazy thread wars.
Well Cus was pretty certain to say the least. He'd know a lot more than us. Ali is the GOAT. As i explained to barber Ali also had to do a lot of things Rocky wouldn't be able to. Foreman hadn't fought for over a year against Young and was also going thru his style change attempt which truth be told never really went well for him first career. In a dream match it isn't a beaten Foreman that Marciano and co get to fight. Also exhaustion put Foreman down against both as much as anything. Young didn't have him hurt in any way, shape, or form. So these guys are polar opposites to Marciano (both in style and dimension) whom many are picking to get smashed strictly because of styles and dimensions yet here you are with the "so what"???? Both are taller with loads more reach and both are fast as well. How thick are you? You are desperate and clutching at anything possible. When was Foreman knocked out early on? The fact of the matter is George has been stopped once in his entire life. This was as much from Exhaustion as anything and was against The GOAT. Frazier landed his vaunted left hook early and it may as well have not even landed. Foreman has already faced one ATG unbeaten swarmer lineal world champ and we all know exactly how that went. The stylistic nature of the matchup makes it extremely unlikely Rocky can land enough to make a difference. The flipside which you guys seem to want to ignore is how on mother earth does Rocky survive Foreman's incredible heat and power early. He manhandled shorter sluggers, even ATG's. He is a force of nature early at his unbeaten best.
Hi JC. It's transparent as glass really. They are proof Archie could knock over any big man but weren't really missed by Rocky or important due to not being good enough!
I was referring to MOORE'S opponents because lamebrains keep touting his KO record as having meaning in a discussion of heavies. Moore who was a middle and lightheavy for the great bulk of his career. (just caught your correction) And Joe Louis - Not the embalmed version that Rocky fought. Ezzard - Not the guy who would go .500 for the remainder of his career. Walcott - Not the guy at the tail end of a long and bruising career Moore - Not at heavyweight. No, sir. Prime Layne - Worse pick of all. Was there such thing as a Prime Layne. It's a terrible thing to fight a big man's style when you aren't a big man.
Exactly, and well stated as usual. Some will clutch at anything and it's glaringly transparent. The older era fighter always invariably wins of course. I've got no bone with Rocky as seen by my various quotes in the power thread. I rate him very highly. Common sense has to prevail in a match like this tho. I have no problem with........well maybe Rocky could do this or that, maybe he could stick close with the right ref etc etc. We can certainly look at different angles and possibilities but we have to be realistic. Of course we always have the same few attacking and dissecting the "opponent" from every angle while ignoring the strengths of the guy as well as the weak points of their own fave. George has points on the board with smaller ATG swarmers. (Of course Joe is said to be a decrepit old man fighitng at 20% of his ability when George matched him up yet old bigger names Rocky was fighting were of course fighting at their best ever in their best weight division). The style advantage is all George's.
Bwahahahaha well put. You've learned things you never remotely knew about in here mate. You've compartmentalized a few of them very well. I learnt the other day Moore and LaStarza would be extremely difficult for Lewis and could even decision him. I've also learnt almost all of the more recent era fighters were a couple of inches shorter than measured whilst the older era's were taller than measured.
If you’re are arguing that Young beat a poorly conditioned Foreman it could just as easily be argued that Foreman beat a poorly conditioned Frazier, who post FOTC was consistently coming in 10 lbs or more overweight, which of course isn’t Foreman’s fault, but it seems strange to equate a poor form of Frazier to a peak form of Marciano, since Marciano never made a habit of showing up overweight. Also, Frazier unlike Marciano relied on speed and quick head movement, which he just didn’t have over 205+ lbs. Marciano was also more experienced and better defensively than Frazier was. Eddie Futch himself after Frazier beat Ali admitted that Frazier was still relatively green and had a lot to learn as a fighter, and needed to be more consistent if he was going to have any longevity as champion. Unfortunately Frazier’s dedication to boxing went right out the window after he beat Ali.
Clearly Foreman as a slugger & much larger + Rocky taking many punches & not boxing or fretreating would make him highly likely to lose. Peak Rocky @ 188 not 185, & Moore at 190 having a gut? Show me the evidence, that is wrong. But otherwise the lack of objectivity is overwhelmingly on the other side.
I would just like to make the point that I wouldnt put my hard earned cash on any fighter of Marciano's weight to beat him over 15 rounds. He was an animal but to think he could beat fighters like Foreman and Liston or modern giants like Wlad or Lennox is in my opinion fantasy as Rocky had no history of beating those kind of fighters. Its the intellectual dishonesty and the moving of the goal posts by his fans to make it more likely that he could accomplish the super human feat of beating much bigger, stronger men who know how to use their physical advantages that makes me write these kind of posts. The last post by Entaowed is an example. If Marciano wasnt prime vs Walcott when was he ? He as 27 years old and fighting for the world heavyweight title. He weighed 184 and a half pounds. Walcott and Charles were six feet in height with 74 inch reaches. The Old Mongoose was 5 ft 11 with a 75 inch reach. They werent actually that much bigger than Rocky. Fighters like Liston, Foreman, Ali and Holmes have at least 2 stones in weight on Rocky and fighters like Lewis, Bowe, Wlad, Vitali and A.J have more. They all have bigger height and reach advantages than Rocky faced from his opposition. I won't type anymore of these posts in respect to Marciano who I rate very highly from a pound for pound perspective. Cheers All.
