I see it 11-14. In his time in the 1980's. Tyson had a better case to be in the top ten, but since Holyfield, and Lewis came. They bumped him out of the top 10, with both fighters soundly beating him. Anyone who has Tyson above either Holy or Lewis has to explain why. Also some might rate one or both of the Klitschko's over Tyson too. Therefore if you have Mike in your top ten, you might need to move out Johnson, Dempsey or Marciano to make room for Lewis, Holyfield and Tyson...At least I think you should.
The you can ignore his time at the top was a short one and he lost his legacy fights badly. Clear facts. I won't. Would you mind posting your top ten?
This https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/top-10-heavyweights.626535/ Except change Wills out for Johnson
It's not uncommon at all. The last Ring list had him above both. It's perfectly reasonable to have him below both though, and that seems to be the trend.
The Rings list depends on who writes it. Ti can change like the wind Personally, I have a tough time saying Tyson was above Holy as he's 0-2 in head to head losses and never beat anyone as good as Bowe. Holyfield really whipped Tyson. It was not a close fight. The Tyson argument to me comes down to a shooting star ( 1986-1989 ) in the mid to late 1980s when he blitzed a mediocre bunch and never meet his best challenger in Witherspoon. Then he was badly beaten by Douglas ( Scorecards were crap ), and went to prison on a **** charge where he essentially admitted guilt. Burno, Tucker, Smith, and Thomas are likely Tyson's best four wins. Most Tyson fans would agree with three or four of those picks. Very solid work, but nothing really special. Thomas had issues with drugs. Tucker broke his hand in round one after likey winning it. Bruno had a moment where Tyson was wobbled. Smith when the distance.
Champion from late 86 to early 90 with 9 successful defences. How long were the likes of Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Marciano, Dempsey and Holyfield, champions for and how many successful defences did they make? Maybe the ingrained view by Tyson haters that Tyson’s time at the top was very short wasn’t that short Afterall in comparison to other top ten candidates? You include Prime Tyson’s potential h2h matchups against other elite heavyweights and I think he’s a lock for the top 10.
Depends on criteria. Peak Tyson 1988 Tyson- for me h2h is top 3 heavy. However he got sloppy did bad things inside and outside the ring so his standing overall drops
every list depends on who writes it. The point isn't that their list is right or wrong, just that plenty of people still find reasons - good reasons - to rank Tyson above Lewis. It happens.
funny you write that when i clearly have said his title career was short. U are just starting an argument with yourself again mendy, not me -come back when u find one for me. np, it wass implicit in my post i made earlier, so i will just cut and paste what i write earlier, because u have shown the inability to read it first time - "The guys above him have altogether more cohesive and complete careers, ali louis holmes johnson rocky lewis followed by the not quite 100% but still ample careers of foreman frazier dempsey. But I think Holy might be above him too, "
If Tyson had fought Bowe 3 times, I'm sure he'd win at least once as well. Tyson is 0-2 against Holyfield. Holyfield is 1-2 against Bowe, 0-2 against Lewis (imo), 1-1 against Moorer. Bowe and Lewis whipped Holyfield, those weren't close fights. This isn't a head to head battle between Tyson and Holyfield. Holyfield has lost his fair share of legacy fights. Was Moorer still an elite fighter when Holyfield beat him? Moorer beat Holyfield in their first fight. In his next fight he was KO'd by a 45 y/o Foreman. His next 3 fights were against Schulz, Botha, and Bean. Moorer didn't look good in any of these fights. He wasn't the same after the Foreman fight. Moorer was still relevant because he was the IBF champ. He won the vacant title against Schulz. Moorer retired after losing to Holy. At Heavyweight, Holyfield struggled against Dokes who was past his prime. It was a great fight but not a great performance by Holy. Holyfield also struggled against Alex Stewart who was a nobody at the time. Holyfield then beat an out of shape Buster Douglas to become the undisputed champ. He defended his titles against Foreman (ranked #10 by The Ring), Cooper (UR) and Holmes (#5). Foreman and Holmes were 42 y/o. Cooper was a journeyman. Not only did Holyfield defend against weak contenders but he also struggled in all these fights. Holyfield lost when he fought a legitimate contender in Bowe. Holyfield regained the titles by beating Bowe in their rematch. It was a close fight. He lost the titles to Moorer in his first defence. He then fights Ray Mercer in a surprisingly tough fight. Mercer had basically lost his last fight to a guy with a record of 7 wins and 9 losses (Jesse Ferguson all over again). Holyfield fights Bowe for a third time and gets stopped. Holyfield then beat Tyson and Moorer to become a unified champion again. Tyson was away for over 4 years, I don't consider that a great win. Holyfield had been active fighting some of the best heavyweights in the world. Mike Tyson was the first heavyweight to unify the division since Frazier (Frazier/Ellis in 1970, Tyson in 1987). There were 4 different champions Mike had to beat to unify the division- Berbick (WBC), Bonecrusher (WBA), Tucker (IBF), Spinks (Lineal/The Ring). Mike went from 0 belts to undisputed champion within 8 months and 8 days. It took a while to get Spinks in the ring. Mike KO'd Spinks in 90 seconds. Spinks had never tasted the canvas before. Mike also beat former/future champions like Pinklon Thomas, Frank Bruno and Tony Tubbs. Took Mike 90 seconds to stop Carl Williams. Williams was the #2 contender (behind Holy) according to the Ring. Mike also became the only man ever to stop Larry Holmes. No one ever dominated Holmes like Tyson did. Tyson beat Razor Ruddock twice. Ruddock was ranked 3rd best heavyweight (behind Tyson and Holy). No one was eager to fight Ruddock at the time. How was Witherspoon his best challenger? Is it because Tyson never fought him? lol. Tyson was supposed to fight Witherspoon in Tokyo but Tim pulled out. He was replaced but Tubbs. Is that a bad replacement? Tyson dominated Pinklon Thomas. Thomas outboxed an in-shape Witherspoon. Tyson beat Bonecrusher who had KO'd Witherspoon in the first round. Tim Witherspoon was one of the most skilled HWs of the 80s but so were Tubbs, Thomas, and Tucker. Tyson's 4 best wins are Spinks, Holmes, Tucker, Thomas. Thomas had issues with drugs? What about Tyson's drug problems since age 11? Lets not go there. We can do this for all fighters tbh. How do you know Tucker broke his hand in the first round? Is it because Tucker said so. How about Pinklon saying he was completely clean and in the best shape of his life before the Tyson fight? Bruno wobbled Tyson. lol. He literally lost every round and got knocked out. How about older Bruno jabbing Lewis' face in and outboxing him? That's gotta be worth more points. Truth is, no one really troubled Tyson during his 10 fight run (Berbick to Williams). Not a single close fight. Tucker was probably the toughest and I'll give Tucker 3 rounds. That's Tyson's toughest fight lol. Tucker, Tubbs, and Pinklon were much better boxers than Mercer, Morrison, Golota, Tua, Briggs etc. You should watch Bowe vs Tubbs, Williams vs Morrison, Bruno vs Lewis, Holmes vs Mercer/Holy/McCall. How was Tubbs outboxing Bowe? How did a washed up Williams almost beat young Morrison? How did Bruno outbox Lewis? How did Holmes do so well against 90s top contenders? How did Biggs trouble Bowe? None of these fighters could do **** against Tyson. Tyson fought the best the division had to offer and he dominated everyone. 90s heavyweight contenders weren't better than 80s. They were more hyped and benefitted from the Tyson effect. Tyson made the heavyweight division relevant again. Guys like Mercer, Morrison, Briggs, McCall, Golota, Tua were inconsistent and overhyped. People **** on the Berbick win but Berbick is a more accomplished fighter than most of the 90s HW contenders. 80s heavyweights were inconsistent but so were 90s. Mercer lost to 2 journeyman (Wilson and Ferguson) and a 42 y/o Larry Holmes. He was outboxed by Damiani and Morrison before he got the KO. He's best known for his losing performances (Holy and Lewis). Morrison has one win on his resume- running circles around a 44 y/o Foreman. He was KO'd by Mercer and KO'd in the first round by a nobody in Bentt. He barely got past washed up versions of Carl Williams and Razor Ruddock. Morrison also struggled against Terry Anderson. These fights were before Morrison fought Lewis. Tua was a KO artist. That's all. He couldn't box. His best wins are Rahman, Ruiz, and Oquendo. Rahman boxed Tua's head off. Tua hit him after the bell and Rahman never fully recovered. Oquendo also outboxed Tua before getting KO'd. Ruiz was a nobody when Tua beat him. Tua also beat Maskaev who was 10-1 at the time. Maskaev with little experience outboxed Tua for 10 rounds or so. He was also outboxed by Nicholson and Izon before he knocked them out. Tua was a man with punching power, that's about it. Briggs got outboxed by George Foreman. Foreman would turn 49 two months later. We have 2 fighters who's claim to fame is beating Holyfield- Bowe and Moorer. What other great wins does Bowe have? Moorer didn't beat any other heavyweight who was even top 10. McCall was a journeyman. He beat Seldon and Lewis. Seldon outboxed McCall. Washed up Tucker and Bruno beat McCall. 45 y/o Larry Holmes outboxed McCall for the first 8 rounds. You are entitled to your opinion. If you think Tyson blitzed through a mediocre bunch, that's fine. But let's not act like 90s was some next golden age. Look at the 90s objectively and you'll see mediocre contenders and great fighters who hardly fought each other. Who were the top fighters from 90s? Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, Tyson, Foreman. We got Holyfield vs Bowe/Tyson/Lewis in the 90s. What about the other matchups? Everyone acts like the best fought the best. That isn't true, Holyfield fought the best. Lewis blitzed through mediocre contenders. He fought a washed up Holyfield and the corpse of Tyson. You said that some might rate one or both Klitschkos above Tyson? On what basis? Beating cans for a longer period. Because that's what they did. Longevity =/= Dominance. You keep mentioning how Smith and Tucker went the distance against Tyson. So what? What does that indicate? Mike beat them decisively. You don't think anyone went the distance against Foreman/Dempsey/Liston? If you aren't counting Tyson's win over Holmes, then you can't count Lewis' win over Holyfield either. Stay consistent with your criteria and you can't leave Tyson out of your top 10.
