I never said Layne. I said lastarza. He was coming off a bunch of wins over nobody important in the division plus a fixed fight against rocky Jones. Chuvalo had several wins throughout his career over somebodies in the division
no we have been through this before and I disagree with you on the Jones fight being fixed. It isn't substantiated anywhere other than what Jones says. Film of Lastarza against Bucceroni shows him to be a good enough fighter not to need anything like that. Cesar Brion, another guy Lastarza beat gave Charles and Louis everything they could handle. Roland also beat Layne at just the right time to warrant a shot ahead of Charles as well. So it all stacks up. Sorry that you dont like Roland but the timeline and results actually stand up in every respect for him. Especially in relation to comparison with Chuvalo as a challenger coming into a title fight off a loss in his last fight.
Have nothing against the man. Just have done enough research on him to realize he was an overprotected limited fighter in a weak era. Talent wise, he could box a bit but he also lacked size, length, handspeed, athleticism, and a good chin, Nothing very much exciting about him. In terms of who was the major players in the division at the time, lastarza avoided pretty much all of them except for Marciano which was a lucrative pay day. “Brion gave Charles and Louis all they could handle” That’s funny because out of the 30 combined rounds against those 3, Brion barely won 5 combined rounds. Brion certainly didn’t give any trouble to Bob Baker, a fighter lastarzas manager turned down publicly in 1952. “Jones fight” More than Jones himself said the fight was fixed, and the fight is on film. The main point is how good was lastarza actually as a fighter if he needed 2 opportunities plus some side help to defeat a club level fighter?
Liston was the first athlete in heavyweight boxing, huh. More explosive and fast-twitch than Dempsey and Louis, both noticably faster than Liston on footage. Stronger than Carnera, a circus freak of strength (literally), or Tom Sharkey, who grappled with 200lbs+ heavies. Bigger, stronger and longer than Jeffries and Baer, who were both bigger, strong and lengthy in reach. More athletic than Marciano, who has an incredible dominant multisport background in highschool. This is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen you write, Seamus. And that's an accomplishment worth bragging about.
how weak can an era be if it includes Walcott, Charles, Louis, Marciano, Baker, Valdes, Satterfeuld, Henry, Layne, harold Johnson, Archie Moore? But sometimes that's the way the cookie crumbles. How many contenders did Tyrell Biggs beat to challenge Tyson? Or cooper to challenge Ali, or mildenburger? Or Foreman to challenge Holyfield? Lastarza beat Brion when he had a ranking. He beat Layne when Rex had a high ranking. That together with the split decision loss to the champion was more than enough than several challengers like Henry Cooper, Jose Roman, Frank Bruno, Tim Witherspoon, Vitali Klitschko, Anthony Joshua and Cimeback George Foreman. How many rounds did Chuvalo win against Ali, Ellis, Frazier and Mathis? It dosnt mean the rounds were not competitive does it? A guy can lose every round and push the winner hard for every moment. Brion and Chuvalo are similar in this respect.
Dempsey and Louis had some raw potential.... to excel below modern heavyweight standards. Perhaps it's best to consider them as proto-cruisers. What did Carnera lift? Where is this athleticism? Whoever commented on his strength in the ring? George Foreman himself called Liston the strongest heavyweight he ever dealt with. He said that it was this strength, in combination with his coordination, that made him so difficult. Tom Sharkey? This is a joke right? Precisely the lil' gumption type whose relevancy was erased by the emergence of the Modern and Post-Modern Heavy. Jeffires longer in reach than Liston? Liston had 8" on him. Jeffries was a cautious plodder, attrition type who had all he could handle with small, older opponents. Not in Liston's class. Baer was an uncoordinated galoot compared to Liston. Big punch, iron chin, fighting will... but athlete? Sorry, not. An entertainer who got in the ring. Marciano was so accomplished at baseball that he couldn't get a minor league contract, right? Liston was consumed by the State at an early age. His opportunities in the sporting endeavors were narrowed to just boxing.
Seamus, can you explain how Sonny Liston was a better athlete than someone like say Joe Louis. Louis looks faster and more explosive on film and he was pre-Liston. He was also roughly the same size.
Also, this talk of modern athletes is a bit perplexing. Liston isn't close to the athleticism of someone like say LeBron James.
Shulberg sparred with Soose and McBride and there are pictures in the book showing it. Shulberg was a regular attendee at the fights,and knew Mike Jacobs as well as anyone. What does his size have to do with anything?
Foreman seemed to think Liston was the complete fighter, a perfect combination of size (in this case, length), power and coordination.
yeah like I said he had knowledge not insight. Hes not a boxing person. Yes I've seen those photos. They're just photos. Lots of writers got into the ring with boxers. It's never "for real" sparring. This is the kind of sparring writers do with boxers: This content is protected
