[/QUOTE] A 108-year old Joe Louis had no problem hitting Marciano with the jab. Liston would break his orbital.
You think that only because you dont realise the difference in jabs. Louis was being crowded. To find space he was forced into using a defensive step-off jab. Where the jab is used as you step into another position to maintain distance. Its effectively a counter rather than a lead. Its understandable that you didnt realise this. You see jabs landed and assume he can be hit with jabs. Any jab. But Sonny used a lead offensive jab. A ram rod attacking punch. It's a harder punch to land with. He lead off with it. fell in with it. This is not the same thing at all. Once you have thrown one of those your in a position that is closer. You close distance with that type of punch. Fighters who lead with jabs (rather than defensively fend with it) are throwing it into the path of oncoming right hands. When it becomes an instinctive punch, a punch where everything that you do comes off it, then it takes you right into an exchange. Works great with tall, upright fighters, since you can really drive it home against them since you are not punching down. Against crowding, mauling guys who are using a lower centre of gravity it can lose much of its effect. This is why lead jabs were often difficult to use on crowding fighters like Marciano and Tyson. Once you throw them those guys are on you.
Not even on rocky's best day but especially not after hes been retired and out of shape for 8 years! I'm glad he had some real friends to talk him out of trying that would have been a screwed up fight! And i wouldn't even want to see it.
If Rocky is coming to Liston, it makes it easier for Liston. Liston's weakness was agile guys that could stick and move. Marciano can only fight one way. He must come forward to be effective. Rocky can get under the jab and close the distance but Liston could fight on the inside. There's no place where Rocky is safe against Liston. Rocky never faced someone with a jab like Liston. Moore/Walcott/Charles never used a jab like Liston did. Louis was brilliant with his jab but that was about 10 years before he fought Marciano. And Marciano isn't going to counter Liston's jab. The reach difference is way too big. Liston can jab and drop his lead arm to his hip and Marciano still couldn't hit him. Liston knew how to manage distance. Also, Marciano wasn't a counter-puncher, he was actually the one who was open to counters. I agree about Liston's jab. He used it as an offensive weapon. He could stand in the center and jab (ex. Williams I & II) but he preferred to attack with his jab. I don't see how this favours Marciano. If Liston keeps pushing Rocky back with his jab, it will limit Marciano's offence and give Liston opportunities to land his right hand. Can we ignore the second Walcott/Charles fights? Because they didn't bring much to the table, for whatever reason. Let's take away Marciano's wins over old fighters. Because those fighters didn't bring to the table what they would've if they were younger. That's a legitimate reason. Saying Patterson was intimidated isn't. A prime Machen was a very good fighter. Liston also beat Patterson and Cleveland Williams twice, and Zora Folley. All these fighters were in their prime when Liston fought them. Marciano is 49-0 with 10 wins over ranked heavyweights. That leaves us with 39 warts. That's a lot of warts. Tbh, LaStarza, Layne, and Cockell were also warts if you consider Machen one. 43 warts it is. That's your opinion. Liston stopped him in the first round twice. That's a fact. Patterson was a more skilled fighter than Marciano. He also had the fastest hands in heavyweight history. Patterson was just as great a heavyweight as Charles/Walcott. There isn't a big gap between these fighters. The only difference is, Patterson was in his prime when Liston beat him. Cleveland Williams was a huge puncher and he was much bigger and faster than Marciano. He never hurt Liston. I wouldn't say Liston was a sucker for right hand. Liston got hit with a right hand every now and then as do all fighters that rely on their jab. The difference is, Liston has a 16" longer reach than Rocky. Marciano was also susceptible to the right hand. Walcott and Charles landed plenty of right hands on him. Moore dropped him with a right hand. Marciano kept his lead hand low and dipped to his right. That's a target for a right hand. This isn't a bad strategy to be fair. It does help you avoid jabs but he was still vulnerable to a right hand. The Moore right hand was a bit different. It's the same weakness though. Marciano used to lean to his right and often led with his right hand. When he was out of range, he'd miss and be off balance. Moore capitalized on this by pulling out of range and coming back with his own right. Marciano was a lot more hittable than Liston. You can say that Liston was a sucker for right hand but Marciano was a sucker for everything. He got hit with all kinds of punches. You said that no one troubled Marciano with their jab. Who did Marciano fight that was known for an all-time great jab? Who constantly used a jab against Marciano? Maybe Louis. Louis landed plenty of jabs against Rocky. This is a slow, washed up Joe Louis. Louis was fighting a defensive fight against Rocky. That's not how Liston fights. Liston won't back down against Marciano. Why would he? Liston was the bigger, stronger fighter. He had a granite chin. Liston hit harder than Marciano. I know, that's an opinion. I don't believe Marciano was a bigger puncher than Liston. Marciano fought old fighters and still struggled to stop them (except Walcott II). Walcott, Charles, Moore, Louis aren't known for their chins. Liston stopped a big heavyweight like Cleveland Williams in the 3rd round and 2nd round in the rematch. Look at the film of that fight and you'll see that Williams was a lot bigger than Liston. Liston stopped Zora Folley in the 3rd round. Folley had been stopped twice before in 56 fights, both times Folley retired on his stool due to an injury. Stopped Patterson in the first round. Patterson, Folley, Williams didn't have great chins either. But Liston stopped them within 3 rounds while they were all in their prime. Liston was stronger than Marciano, hit harder, and was also a better boxer. Rocky gets knocked out here.
I must be having an allergic reaction to something I ate or maybe breathed if I am reading someone is actually arguing that old Marciano would be anything other than slaughtered against Sonny. I think prime Rocky gets chewed up and regurgitated in a handful of rounds too.
178lb Marty Marshall was nowhere near the puncher or the boxer JJ Walcott was and dont forget Eddie Machen went 12 with Liston but was KO'd in one by Ingo, also Bert Whitehurt survived the final bell 2x with Liston and was KO'd 2X by Archie Moore a month before Whitehurst fought Liston. Embrell Davis KO'd Marshall 2X but was KO'd in 1 by Archie Moore You are intitled to your opinion but I agree with Ali's opinion that Marciano would have been a tougher fight for him than Joe Frazier and Frazier himself said Louis and Marciano would beat Ali. Marciano was a tough guy to go 15 rounds with and actually improved in rematches, he KO'd Walcott in 1 in rematch, after getting seriously KO'd in the 1st fight. Frazier,Doug Jones, were under 6" and a few lbs less or more than 200lbs and Cooper was I believe under 190 when he dropped Ali, Bonavena who could not punch or take a punch like Marciano gave Ali a rugged fight so IMO when 2 ATG's get in a ring there will be a great fight like all of the Ali-Frazier fights There would be NO clowns in the ring with PRIME Marciano, only serious fighters and serious fights
Unfortunately it just gets sillier n sillier here. Choclab aka the master of the red herring seems to think that if he types the same monotonous nonsense over and over again while ignoring any good points made by posters who disagree with him until they give up n leave the stage makes him the " winner ". The cult of Rocky remind me a lot of the Flat Earth society to be completely honest. Marciano only had seven world title fights and he never fought anyone vaguely resembling Liston yet the same piffle gets rehashed over and over again. The post above is a good example. Every guy mentioned under 200 pounds who managed to survive against Liston were cuties. What do fighters like Machen & Marshall have in common with Rocky apart from weighing under 200 pounds ? They fought nothing like the Rock. I love the way they take early fights in someone like Liston's career as a sure sign that a prime Liston would be the same against those opponents. Ditto stuff like Clay vs Banks. At the same time they ignore or downplay the Marciano vs Lowry fights or the fact that many people who saw the fight thought La Starza beat Marciano in their first fight. In the end I have no problem at all with anybody selecting whoever they like in any dream fight match up as its all opinion anyway but the intellectual dishonesty which seems to now be verging on trolling has gotten right out of hand here. If someone can show me one fight since WW2 where a championship level swarmer who weighed around 185-190 pounds beats a much larger, power punching type who outweighs him by thirty pounds then I would love to see it. Don't name fighters like Moore or Charles as they were boxer - punchers not swarmers. In fact I would be happy if someone can give one example in the last 75 years of any swarming heavyweight weighing whatever who managed to beat a fighter of similar standing who was considered a puncher and outweighed him by thirty pounds. I know Ruddock outweighed Tyson by about 20 pounds but while Donovan was a great puncher I cannot say he was of similar historic standing to Tyson. He isn't. Guys like Glass City Cobra and Golden Feather 99 have written some very good posts with some excellent points on the last few pages and as is always the case with the usual Rockistas they have all been ignored. Rocky was only champion for 3 and a half years which puts him at number 14 of all time as far as longest single reigns and 19th as far as how long he held a version of the tile ( it was undisputed to be fair to Rocky). Rocky only actually beat five guys in world heavyweight title fights and made seven defenses of the title. Compare this to fighters like Louis, Ali, Holmes and Wlad K who managed to beat over 20 different fighters. As much as I admire Marciano's courage, fitness and the fact he was always entertaining I still struggle to see why he is put on some pedestal. It must be the unbeaten record and perhaps his ethnicity. Marciano fails the test compared to the all time standard bearers like Louis, Ali, Holmes and Wlad or even fighters like Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis. He fails the longevity test , he fails the resume test and head to head its extremely hard to make a case that there aren't many other heavyweight champions who deserve to be rated above him from an historical perspective. I know some people say the same about Frazier and they also have a point as much as I love Joe who was my fave fighter as a kid. Unlike Marciano though Frazier has his Ali trilogy to hang his hat on. Its back to the non heavyweight threads for me as they seem to have more balanced views with posters who dont have the need to respond to every opinion that differs from theirs with endless reams of what is basically spin and deflection. Cheers All.
An absolutely embarrassing attempt to masquerade narrative as analysis. Do you even read what you write and then reconcile it with tape? https://www.kapwing.com/videos/5cdcc20ac22feb0013900615 https://www.kapwing.com/videos/5cdcc33c2a72ed0014283303
Just one? 1951-06-09 Archie Moore vs Abel Cestac 177 lbs vs 224 lbs RTD9 1953-07-01 Bob Satterfield vs Bob Baker 180 lbs vs 214 lbs KO1 1955-08-17 Bob Satterfield vs Nino Valdes 183 lbs vs 215 lbs UD10 1956-04-16 Archie Moore vs George Parmentier 193 lbs vs 233 lbs TKO3 1966-01-17 Joe Frazier vs Mel Turnbow 199 lbs vs 231 lbs KO1 1968-03-04 Joe Frazier vs Buster Mathis 204 lbs vs 243 lbs TKO11 1969-01-10 Jerry Quarry vs Charlie Reno 201 lbs vs 251 lbs TKO5 1969-03-24 Jerry Quarry vs Buster Mathis 196 lbs vs 234 lbs UD12 1977-04-16 Gerry Coetzee vs Mike Schutte 210 lbs vs 266 lbs W12 1985-04-29 Tim Witherspoon vs James Broad 222 lbs vs 261 lbs KO2 1985-12-06 Mike Tyson vs Sammy Scaff 215 lbs vs 250 lbs TKO1 1988-04-26 Donovan Ruddock vs Larry Alexander 226 lbs vs 256 lbs KO2 1990-03-02 Ray Mercer vs Kimmuel Odum 213 lbs vs 246 lbs UD12 1990-10-25 Evander Holyfield vs James Douglas 208 lbs vs 246 lbs KO3 1991-04-19 Evander Holyfield vs George Foreman 208 lbs vs 257 lbs UD12 1992-02-01 Michael Moorer vs Mike White 225 lbs vs 275 lbs UD10 1992-11-13 Michael Moorer vs Billy Wright 224 lbs vs 257 TKO2 1993-06-07 Tommy Morrison vs George Foreman 226 lbs vs 256 lbs UD12 1994-01-29 Donovan Ruddock vs Anthony Wade 241 lbs vs 290 lbs W10 2001-10-13 Ray Mercer vs Brian Scott 237 lbs vs 274 lbs KO2 2005-12-15 Sultan Ibragimov vs Lance Whitaker 220 lbs vs 272 lbs TKO7 2007-04-14 Ruslan Chagaev vs Nikolay Valuev 228 lbs vs 319 lbs MD12 2007-05-26 Alexander Povetkin vs Patrice L'Heureux 223 lbs vs 270 lbs KO2 2007-06-02 Sultan Ibragimov vs Shannon Briggs 221 lbs vs 273 lbs UD12 2009-10-24 Tomasz Adamek vs Andrew Golota 214 lbs vs 256 lbs TKO5 2010-03-13 Alexander Povetkin vs Javier Mora 223 lbs vs 257 lbs TKO5 2010-04-10 Evander Holyfield vs Frans Botha 220 lbs vs 250 lbs TKO8 2010-04-24 Tomasz Adamek vs Chris Arreola 217 lbs vs 250 MD12 2010-08-21 Tomasz Adamek vs Michael Grant 217 lbs vs 261 lbs UD12 2010-10-16 Alexander Povetkin vs Teke Oruh 227 lbs vs 264 lbs KO5 2011-04-09 Tomasz Adamek vs Kevin McBride 215 lbs vs 285 lbs UD12 2012-09-29 Kubrat Pulev vs Alexander Ustinov 249 lbs vs 305 lbs KO11 2015-08-22 Mairis Biedis vs Manuel Charr 213 lbs vs 245 lbs KO5 2017-11-04 Deontay Wilder vs Bermane Stiverne 220 lbs vs 254 lbs KO1 2017-11-25 Manuel Charr vs Alexander Ustinov 230 lbs vs 279 lbs UD
The first clip confirms what I said about defensive counter jabs. So thanks for endorsing what I said. The second clip shows two lead double jabs. One entirely missed and the clip is deliberatly cut short to avoid showing the Jack hammer right that Rocky landed in reply! I'm not sure what you think this proves. Perhaps not all of the jabs Louis threw were of the defensive variety and still led to him being hit more often? An odd argument to say the least. Rocky did get hit but it did not prevent Rocky from connecting more times than Louis connected against him.
"In fact I would be happy if someone can give one example in the last 75 years of any swarming heavyweight weighing whatever who managed to beat a fighter of similar standing who was considered a puncher and outweighed him by thirty pounds." These aren't even matchups, mismatches mostly. George Foreman was 42 years old when he fought Holyfield and 43 when he fought Morrison. How was Morrison a swarmer? He brought his bike to the ring. Holyfield was also no swarmer against Foreman. He was boxing most of the fight, nothing like Marciano tbh. You think Wilder was a swarming heavyweight? Interesting. He beat Stiverne with his jab and reach. Briedis vs Charr? Charr isn't a puncher. And Charr/Pulev vs Ustinov. Ustinov lol. Come on. And how were Charr/Pulev swarmers in that fight? I've highlighted the mismatches in your text. I respect the dedication though. You did your research.
You have proved my point. The use of these strict swarmer, Boxer, slugger descriptions are far too vague. Everyone has a different interpretation. I have never liked the use of them. Whatever, none of the smaller fighters are defensive men are they? Even taking away what you regard as the mismatches here (remember many believe size always evens things up) There are a whole lot of examples that qualify...And you didnt think there was one example did you?
