WAS George Foreman Greater than Larry Holmes?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by RulesMakeItInteresting, May 18, 2019.



  1. Webbiano

    Webbiano Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    One of the few criticisms you can make of Holmes is that he missed a fair few big names in the division and he didn’t unify, Foreman has the big wins, but lacks a solid foundation of top 10 fighters on his resume.

    In a top 10 list it’s easy to rank Foreman ahead or vice versa, however comparing them side by side Holmes seems to have the upper hand for me
     
  2. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    There is the factor of longevity...Holmes went 20-1 for title defenses, held the title for over seven straight years.
     
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  3. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

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    Larry was the more skillful and better fighter in there primes. George obviously won a title second time around and marketed himself 100% times better and with much more fanfare and hoopla. George's body also held up better I just edited in.
     
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I think it has to come down to dominance. Even though it was the split title era, Larry was genuinely the best heavyweight out there for a longer time. He was active. Beat all the guys they lined up for him when the other champions couldn’t stay winning. Just consistent. By about 1979 Larry had actually cleaned out the division. The WBA reasoning behind not recognising Larry when Ali retired was terrible. As I recall, Leon Spinks Fought Ali over Ken Norton after Ali fought Spinks over the winner of Jimmy Young vs Norton. Then Larry beat Norton (who beat young) then he beat Ocassio who beat Young then he beat Shavers right after Shavers beat Norton in an eliminatior. Why the WBA felt they had to find two other guys to fight for their strand of recognition when Larry had beat Norton, occasio and Shavers seems absolutely perverse. Then a guy Larry knocked out beat the winner of their stupid vacant title fight anyway..then when retired unbeaten ex champ comeback, the guy the WBA stripped Spinks over, he challenged Larry rather than their guy!

    All this time Larry was consistently beating challengers, some who wound up winning belts like Weaver, Berbick, Witherspoon And Smith or in the case of Leon Spinks and Ali had been one of the other champions. The guys Larry missed were never better regarded than Larry and would lose to guys Larry beat. Fights with Tate and Coetzee were signed but didn’t come off.

    Sure Foreman beat a better champion to win the title, he beat a better version of Norton, but it all went wrong far too quickly. Lost to Ali then had harder fights with two of Ali’s challengers young and Lyle. The amazing win over Moorer so many years later was astonishing since his comeback was regarded as very gimmicky. But unlike Frazier, Moorer was never regarded the best active heavyweight in the world. He had been an accidental champion over Holyfield and either Bowe, Lewis and any number of contenders (all more deserving than Foreman) would have won the title had they been given the chance. So whilst that win did astonish me, and I did root for George in that fight, it cannot eclipse the day to day business of being a long term champion like Larry Holmes.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  5. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    These are such strong points. It also bears saying that most of the fight fans I know put Larry as the winner of a H2H...even during the 90s. Larry was too much like Ali (and overall perhaps a better puncher) for George to have actually wanted to fight him in any era.

    George also gave up literally millions of dollars to directly avoid fighting Larry in the late 90s. And this would have been over fifteen years after Larry's prime.
     
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  6. JackSilver

    JackSilver Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Foreman is the bigger name thanks mainly to Old Foreman’s antics from the late 80s onwards but Holmes is the better fighter.
     
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Yes George was selective in this comeback that confuses judgement of a lot of people. I really try to avoid acknowledging that version of George. He had been the real McCoy, but he no longer was anything other than a decent contender in his comeback who was able to leapfrog into unearned opportunities over more deserving contenders.

    He had been a wonderful talent. And he’s close to Larry just on the Frazier and Norton wins alone. But that is it.
     
  8. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster I check this every now and then Full Member

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    For what it's worth, I rank Foreman at #4 and Holmes at #5 on my greatest heavyweights list
     
  9. JackSilver

    JackSilver Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I like H2H list rather than a greatest list and on that Holmes would be no.2 with Foreman at no.7.
     
  10. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    One of the strange things about George is how he seemingly grew a champion's heart...during his comeback. The George Foreman who lost against Holy had a lot of dignity and champion's heart showing through, even when it was obvious he was losing. Can't really say that about 70s George who, though I love the man to this very day, was kind of a big crybaby and ******* after getting beaten by Ali imo.

    Keep in mind, George is a top three favorite fighter in my book lol! I don't want to seem too critical of a fighter I love so much.

    When we consider competition...George was there when Ali, Frazier, and Norton were around and all three were ATGs (yeah, I hesitate on Norton, but to me his wins against Ali including the first and third fights were sheer gold). Larry didn't show up until the tail end of that...when he beat Shavers the first time Norton was about a year past his prime, Frazier was washed up (period), and Ali was deep into his decline as champion. But Larry beat men who either were or would become champions during his reign, including Tim who ended up becoming a two time champ after that fight, Bonecrusher, Leon Spinks, Ali.

    If people want to start talking again about how slim the 80s heavyweight competition was...sure, in comparison to the 70s. How about the competition available during the Klitschko reigns? Significantly worse imo, and it really isn't that much better today.
     
  11. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    Larry #2 h2h?

    Who do you have as #1 and #3???
     
  12. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Would you put Ali or Louis above Holmes? I have a hard time putting Larry above those guys, but that's just me...and I'm a huge fan of Larry.
     
  13. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    No ****? :lol:

    Make a fool of yourself all you like by refusing to acknowledge him but the fact is the man was THEE lineal heavyweight champ at 45 ;)

    As Mac said, you try to minimize Liston's 2 x KO1 over Patterson and here you are completely refusing to acknowledge Foreman's ascent to lineal champion at age 45.

    You obviously have no idea what a shocker you look like.
     
  14. cuchulain

    cuchulain VIP Member Full Member

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    Ali
    Louis

    Lewis
    Foreman
    Marciano
    Holmes

    Tyson
    Frazier
    Liston

    Wlad

    Johnson
    Dempsey

    1 and 2 are firm.

    3 to 6 have little to separate them.
    Same for 7-9 and 11-12.


    I rank Big George over Holmes, both h2h (both prime) and greatness.
     
  15. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    You can argue it either way, because their resumes have the opposite strengths and weaknesses.
     
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