The wins of Larry Holmes vs Rocky Marciano

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Undefeated Lachbuster, May 16, 2019.



  1. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member Full Member

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    :rolleyes:

    Completely missing the point.

    woosh.
     
  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Charles decisions Shavers.

    Norton decisions Moore.

    Layne Witherspoon could go either way to be honest.

    LaStarza probably outpoints Cobb.

    Walcott decisions Mercer.

    Old Louis has more left than old Ali, and takes the decision.
     
  3. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster I check this every now and then Full Member

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    oooh, unpopular choice!
     
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    LaStarza could probably have been eliminated fairly easily, by giving him a slightly less favorable stylistic match.
     
  5. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster I check this every now and then Full Member

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    Who do you believe i should've matched him with? I believe i said earlier in the thread that i should've swapped Layne and LaStarza's matches to make the styles more comparable
     
  6. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Witherspoon would be a very clear favorite over LaStarza, but Layne might be a 50/50 type fight for him.

    LaStarza looses not most top contenders, but give him somebody relatively easy to out box, who is not a wrecking ball, and he has a good chance.
     
  7. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Of course walk around weight matters. They train up today in HW because everyone else does. Marciano sacrificed some of his power for endurance by training down as ALL the fighters did then. They didn’t use weights and had much more emphasis on cardio. Maybe going 15 had something to do with it or it was just the thinking then.
     
  8. Golden_Feather99

    Golden_Feather99 Active Member Full Member

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    Who trains up in weight? Anthony Joshua is constantly trying to come in at a lower weight. Deontay Wilder's weight has come down in the past 3 years. Tyson Fury lost a lot of weight over the 3 fights he has had in his comeback. No one trains up in weight. They lose weight as they train for their fights. I don't believe Marciano at 210 was in good shape, he was probably fat. So I don't really care about his walk around weight. It's how much you weigh on fight night. I need some evidence of modern heavyweights training up and in weight and older heavyweights training down in weight.
     
  9. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Called weight lifting PEDs exc name any lighter weight who’s moved up to HW and they gain weight. It’s not uncommon Holyfield Byrd Tua (Tua was a lot lighter earlier in his career and I don’t think getting fat helped) Hide Tooney as far as older HWs training down they all did because they didn’t weight lift and emphasized cardio. You will lose weight that way. Weight lifting and PEDs kind of don’t have that affect.
     
  10. Golden_Feather99

    Golden_Feather99 Active Member Full Member

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    Most PEDs are actually used to cut weight and enhance endurance. Tua was a lot bigger than Marciano. A LOT bigger. Hide was a small heavyweight. Toney was fat as shi-t. You're giving me examples of small heavyweights that gained weight so they could compete with the big heavyweights (Holy, Byrd etc). That's exactly what Marciano would need to do. He can't compete at 184. Not happening. He'll get crushed by guys like Lennox, Bowe, AJ, Klitschkos. As for weight lifting, it doesn't necessarily make you go up in weight. You can do strength training and lose weight. Fighters also do tons of endurance training that counters the weight lifting. Sparring sessions, heavy bag work, pad work, road work help you lose weight. Heavyweights today are simply bigger. To say that they train up in weight is not true. They are naturally big. You think Joshua starts camp at 230 and goes up to 250 over fight camp? Mercer was naturally big and Marciano was naturally small. That's all there is to it. Bigger they are, harder they hit. That's how physics works. More mass there is, more force will be generated.
     
  11. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I don’t think you get it. The men fighting today would not weigh what they do in the 1950s. None of them would. The weight lifting and PEDs allows them to be at that weight otherwise they’d all be a lot lighter because the only thing they’d be doing is cardio. Marciano Louis Ali would all be heavier he’ll look at Foreman as a perfect example
     
  12. Golden_Feather99

    Golden_Feather99 Active Member Full Member

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    What's your point? Is there some algorithm we can use to determine how much modern fighters would weigh if they fought in the 50s? Weren't there giant heavyweights in the 1910s, 20s, 30s? Carnera, Williard, Baer, Simon etc. How were they so big? Would you say they were naturally big or they were on PEDs lifting weights 24/7? I said Mercer was bigger than Marciano thus he hits harder. Whether it's weight training or PEDs, I don't know and I don't really care. You're making it way too complicated. The person I responded to said that Marciano hit harder than Mercer even though he was much smaller. He didn't say Marciano hits harder than Mercer if Mercer was fighting in the 50s.

    Did you say Foreman was a perfect example lol? Foreman was in his 40s and he was fat. That's not how it works man. Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe were massive when they were in the olympics. When they weren't even 20 years old. They competed in the super-heavyweight division. I doubt they were huge at the age of 18/19 because they were on PEDs or lifted weights. They were naturally bigger. You know this kid today named Daniel Dubois. He turned pro at the age of 19. In his first pro fight, he weighed 231 lbs. 6'5, 231. Is he naturally big or is he on PEDs? That's my entire point. Fighters today are bigger and they hit harder. I don't know if they would be as big in the 50s. But that's when Marciano fought. If it doesn't seem fair, don't compare him to todays heavyweights. Compare him to Dempsey, Louis etc. I already said that Marciano was a great puncher for his weight. But that's it.
     
  13. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I believe it is actually mass + velocity. To have additional mass at the expense of speed or velocity does not always equate.

    https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/momentum/u4l1a.cfm
     
  14. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster I check this every now and then Full Member

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    Nah it's clear as day that Valuev hits harder than Shavers, right?

    On a serious note, there are so many other factors that go into punch power......

    Torque (arm vs full body punching)
    Mindset (some subconsciously hold back)
    Hand/wrist conditioning (don't wanna break em)
    Technique (did you get your weight into it, how did you deliver it, etc)

    Etc
     
  15. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    If you want to get rid of Ken Norton, then match him against Rex Layne.

    In this scenario he either looses, or has only eliminated Layne!