There’s no such thing as a style advantage, each style can be countered by another it all depends on how good the boxer is at implementing his own style.
Yes, because it is a fantasy and everyone can fantasise about what they want I understand and agree with this in principle. hmm. Possible outcome yes, Perfectly valid pick, I’m not so sure. There is something presumptuous about early predictions unless one fighter is severely handicapped in class level. I once bet on a one round knockout that paid out (joe Calzaghe vs Tocker pudwell) But I wasn’t very proud of my pick coming true even though it paid out. My reasoning? just because a guy is capable of doing it, There was no way of knowing Calzaghe was going to go for the first round knockout. I suppose It was valid in that it was correct result , but even being the recipient of getting the prediction right felt somewhat of a fluke. I have always felt more justified in getting predictions right later in the fight. only because Everything is plausible in fantasy. Class level and pedigree is more important than style differences within heavyweights.
Exactly he was favoured over the champion. When two fighters are all time greats at the same time I don’t think it is possible for one to be anything more than a slight favourite. I could be wrong. But perhaps the reason Floyd was not favoured could be because he was no longer considered good enough to win that kind of fight. After all he had been through the Johansson trilogy which took three whole years to resolve.
^THIS! This perfectly sums it up! He flat out refuses to accept that someone else's opinion that a fight may end early is just as valid as his opinion it won't.
Floyd Patterson a all time great? Really? Very good but not great in my opinion. He was knocked out 3 times at his so called best.
Lol just stop already! Unless the odddmakers say its 50/50 its not a great fight? Its not possible to favor one ATG over the other? Are you ****ing serious right now?
That’s not style though is it? Plus we have all seen athletic guys sparked off non athletic dudes haven’t we? Think butterbeen and Tony galento to name but 2. It’s ball hang
Bull****. You can be the best at a style and still have problems. Once again, Frazier's credentials establish him as perhaps the greatest swarmer at hw. Yet he always had problems with iron chinned 2 fisted sluggers who won't back up (Bonavena, Foreman). Stick and move outside fighters dont like being crowded or dealing with volume. It isnt a coincidence Ali toughest fights were with volume punchers. Floyd mayweather looked very irritated and uncomfortable with marcos maidana and his 2 fights with the argentinian were perhaps his most difficult. Gene Tunney's only loss was to the wild relentless Harry Greb and a past his prime inactive Dempsey gave him problems and even knocked him down. Counter punchers hate being forced to be the aggressor or not having the advantage in speed/reach/etc. James Toney vs Roy and Quarry vs Ali demonstrate this. Juan Manuel Marquez was a brilliant counter puncher but he was very awkward and frustrated against mayweather who had good ring iq and reflexes himself. Sluggers almost always, always hate guys with a good combination of speed/stamina/timing/etc who can fight backing up or capitalize on their wide swings. Shavers vs Holmes, porter vs Kell brook, tyson vs Douglas, etc.
Good post, each can be countered though there’s no hard and fast rule. Boxers can beat sluggers and vice versa ditto swarmers can beat counter punchers etc no particular one trumps the other, neither deserves to classed has having a advantage over the other. It’s how good the individual is at overcoming a given style.
Ok. No problem. Muhammad Ali weighed 230 when he fought Jimmy Young. That's the undisputed heavyweight champion, not a contender. George Foreman weighed above 230 just once in his first career (231). Were Foreman and Ali the same size? Ken Norton never weighed 230 in his career. Mike Tyson weighed 240 when he fought Neilsen. Tyson was the #2 contender. Compare him to a prime Wladimir Klitschko who weighed 238 against Ibragimov. This is a 32 year old Wladimir. Wlad weighed 240 when he fought AJ. 41 year old Wlad. Are Tyson and Wlad the same size? Larry Holmes weighed more than Lennox Lewis in the 90s. He weighed 233 when he fought Mercer and Holyfield in 1992. Lennox Lewis weighed 227 when he fought Ruddock. Holmes was a top 5 heavyweight. Was he bigger than Lewis? Nope, he was just fat and old. Joe Frazier weighed 224.5 when he fought Foreman. You know how much Foreman weighed? 224. Was Frazier as big as Foreman? 3 lbs less than Lennox Lewis. Was Joe the same size as Lewis now? Frazier was ranked #3. I got a lot more examples. I think you know what I was implying lol. Louis was 213, 6'2, 76" reach, and 37 years old. Liston would be 213, 6'1, 84" reach, and ~30 years old. Prime Liston, corpse of Louis. Patterson was 189 lbs, 6'0, 71" reach, and 27 years old. Marciano would be 185, 5'10½, 68" reach, and 28/29 y/o. Both in their prime. I don't know how this is so complicated. Marciano beat a washed up Joe Louis. I don't care what he was ranked at. You and I both know he was washed up. He wasn't as fast as prime Liston, didn't hit as hard as prime Liston, didn't take a punch as well as prime Liston, wasn't as strong as prime Liston. I can go on and on. Louis fought nothing like Liston. Boxer-puncher vs Slugger. The only thing Louis had in common with Liston was his weight. Patterson was a swarmer like Marciano. Patterson was in his prime. Patterson was a better fighter than Marciano. It took Marciano 8 rounds to get rid of this supposed modern heavyweight. Liston took out Patterson in 1 round, twice. Louis was the #1 contender. Patterson was the undisputed, lineal heavyweight champion. Patterson was 1½ taller than Marciano. He had 3" longer reach. "google photos" Lmao. Come on man. Are we gonna starting arguing over their listed height now? You know what, let's say they were the same height. What about the 3" reach difference? What should I google? No ****in way. Savold? Are you serious? You know how many fights Savold had in the previous 30 months? 1 fight. He fought Bruce Woodcok for 4 rounds and won over cuts. Savold was 36 and more washed up than Joe Louis. Bivins was washed up too. Brion was hardly a contender. Williams win over Ernie Terrell is much better than any of those wins. Williams also beat Miteff and Daniels who were top 10 contenders. You want Liston to fight with an injured shoulder? It was a poor joke. I know. But peoples opinions change over time. Harry Greb is the perfect example imo. He's now considered the goat by a lot of people and the undisputed goat at 160. Liston is rated highly because of his dominance and head to head ability. Marciano has a nice looking resume but it isn't all that when you dissect it. Maybe the old-timers that rated Marciano so highly have passed away. People that didn't grow up in that era won't know how great Rocky was. They have to judge for themselves. Why has Jack Johnson dropped so much in all-time rankings? Because most of his big wins came against green, inexperienced fighters. Terrell wasn't ranked top 10 in 1962. In 1963, he shot up to #3. Terrell was a good fighter when he fought Williams whether he was ranked or not. I'll give you a perfect example- Salvador Sanchez vs Azumah Nelson. Nelson wasn't top 10 and had only 13 fights. Was that not a good win though? Terrell didn't lose a fight for the next 5 years. He beat Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, George Chuvalo, Doug Jones, Bob Foster. Williams blew the rematch? lol. He lost a split decision. It was a very close fight. 3 months later, Terrell outboxed Folley quite easily. Ernie had been a pro for 5 years when Williams knocked him out. Terrell wasn't some green fighter. Williams was the first ranked opponent he fought and got knocked out. Terrell had to fight a ranked contender at some point. LaStarza beat one ranked contender in his career- Rex Layne. He also lost to guys like Rocky Jones, Don Cokell, Bucceroni, Charley Norkus, Julio Medeiros. All these losses came before he turned 28 and after he had 40 fights. Don Cokell beat one ranked contender in his career- LaStarza. He lost to Jimmy Carroll, Aaron Wilson twice, Jimmy Slade, Randy Turpin, Nino Valdes. All these losses came before Don turned 27 and after he had 40 fights. Rex Layne was a good contender. Still, he beat two ranked contenders in his career- Walcott and Charles. Two great fighters. Layne lost to Charles twice too. Layne also lost to LaStarza, Willie James, KO'd by Earl Walls twice, KO'd by Tommy Jackson twice, lost 3 decisions to Bob Baker. All these losses came before Layne turned 28 and after he lost to Marciano in his 38th fight. Cleveland Williams was 20 years old when he was KO'd by Satterfield. Williams was a last minute replacement. After losing to Satterfield, Williams was drafted and didn't fight for the next 2 years and 2 months. His record when he was drafted: 33-2. He went 34-3-1 over the next 10 years. I already told you this but you probably ignored it. Williams lost a split decision to Terrell and was stopped twice by Lison. Drew against Machen. He didn't lose to journeymen the way Layne, Cockell, LaStarza did. That's a 10 year period, age 23 to 33, where Williams fought 38 times. When you talk about resume, you only wanna talk about wins. Those contenders you named lost plenty of fights to cans and journeymen. I didn't even mention all their losses, only the ones in their primes. Williams was a consistent fighter. To find underwhelming losses on Williams' resume, you either have to go back to his teenage years (Sylvester Jones, Satterfield isn't underwhelming) or you have to go late 60s. Williams was battered by Ali in 66. Williams was 33. He had been a pro for 15 years. Had 73 pro fights. And he had been shot in the stomach a couple of years back. He underwent four operations over seven months for colon damage and an injured right kidney. Lost 60 lbs during that period. After losing to Ali, his next loss came exactly 2 years later. Williams was 35 years old when he lost Cleroux. Foreman and Liston have a "punchers chance" against Liston. Listen mate. Marciano would have a punchers chance against Liston/Foreman and that's about it. Both would walk through him, past him, over him, don't matter.
Per Lou Duva: Retiring undefeated became Marciano's claim to fame, but when Ingemar Johansson defeated Floyd Patterson for the championship in 1959, Marciano considered a comeback. "He was offered $1.2 million to fight Johansson, which is like $20 million now," said Duva, who'd been enlisted to work Marciano's corner. "Rocky would've knocked him out, too. He never wanted to fight Patterson because Patterson was quick. But Johansson stood right in front of you, which would've been perfect for Rocky." When Patterson signed for a rematch with Johansson, Marciano lost interest. Marciano tried his hand at television and radio work, but the old street fire occasionally surfaced, such as in 1964, when he was in Miami doing radio spots for the Sonny Liston-Muhammad Ali fight. "Rocky went to the gym where Liston trained," Duva said. "He was supposed to interview him, but Liston kept teasing Rocky, saying, 'You wouldn't last two rounds with me.' Rocky stayed calm, but he was getting mad. Finally, Rocky said, 'Get me some trunks, some shoes, and gloves and let's see what happens.' Rocky was serious. Liston's people ran in like they were doing the 100-yard dash, grabbed Sonny and took him out of the gym."
According to Associated Press, Liston was only a 3 to 2 favourite (1.5 to 1). According to Boxrec, Patterson was an 8 to 5 underdog (1.6 to 1). That's a slight underdog imo. Moderate would be about 2 or 2.5 to 1. Rocky Marciano was an 8 to 5 favourite as the challenger when he fought Walcott. Perhaps the reason Walcott was not favoured could be because he was no longer considered good enough to win that kind of fight. Marciano was a 4 to 1 favourite against Charles and Moore. Ezzard Charles was a 2 to 1 underdog when he fought Joe Louis. Charles was the heavyweight champion. Louis was old and coming out of retirement.
you don’t care where Louis was ranked at? Even though the guy was beating Savold, Bivins and Brion? These were the kind of worthy wins only a decent contender can register. He was not the old Joe Louis by any stretch. But at 65% the guy was better than anyone but champions. You can’t ever say that about Cleveland Williams. In his prime He drew with Machen after Ingo sparked Machen in one round. Louis did not draw with Savold or Bivins or Brion. He beat those guys. I think that might be a minority view you have there. Liston was described as “lumbering” in his prime. It’s not the kind of description for fast snappy speed is it? Louis didn’t take a punch as well as Liston in his prime? Didn’t he get decked by Ali? Didn’t whitehurst and Foley stagger him? Reports of the Marshall fights say Sonny took a lot of telegraphed corkscrew right hands over and over again until it broke his jaw. Liston took punches and he was not hard to hit. you need to get away from categories like slugger, swarmer , boxer puncher. It just makes way for embarrassing hasty generalisations. Boxing does not work like that. This isn’t Rock Paper Scissors. this is so obscure a view it could be unique to this forum. no photo I have seen proves this. Bivins was always a good fighter and he was younger than Louis. He even beat Mike Dejohn years after this. Bivins took Charles and Bob Baker the distance and knocked out coley Wallace too. This was all after losing to Joe Louis. Film of his win over Charley Doc Williams shows Bivins was still a top fighter after Louis. Nobody knocked out Bivins after Louis beat him. He was crafty till the end. The fact is Sonnys world championship dominance started when he beat Patterson. It ended with the next guy he fought. He beat three good fighters before destroying patterson. Machen, foley and Roy Harris. That’s it. He might have been the best heavyweight in the world while he was waiting for Patterson to rematch Johansson but he had to fight the winner to prove this. And he did. But it is not a long reign of dominance or anything like it. yeah, Williams was #3 in 1963 so he was given a title eliminator with Machen and he drew. He fought Liston in 1959. no Roland beat Brion and Bucceroni too. That makes three contenders. no, Roland was Empire champion. He beat kid Mathews, Roland Lastarza And Johnny williams. He beat Lastarza at just the right time to earn a shot. This is how Don was the legitimate #2 contender. yeah, yeah yeah. Williams went 34-3-1 over 10 years. Take away the guys that weighed 10lb less than Williams and what are you left with? 14 fights. Including only the rated guys and what have you got? 1-3-1. Are you boasting about some bully boy with a 1-3-1 record against guys who can fight back?
