Interesting stuff. That’s pretty good research. Have you checked out the odds for Rocky against a Layne or Joe Louis?
Brion was unranked, Bucceroni was ranked at light-heavy. Layne himself was making a very brief return to the top 10 thanks solely to his upset and much disputed decision over Ezzard Charles. Johnny Williams had been unranked since his ko loss to Heinz Neuhaus. Williams was 3-3-1 against rated guys or 4-3-1 counting Roger Rischer (ranked by the WBA but not by the Ring). Two of the three losses were, of course, to Liston himself. If you're going to take this simplistic box-ticking approach to rating a fighter's achievements you should at least try to get your facts straight.
I never suggested Liston was ranked above Ingo I simply stated you were wrong saying Liston only started beating contenders in1960, He didn't. I have noticed a pattern in your posts,,you veer off piste and address a point that hasn't been argued . Who had lost fights out of those ranked contenders has no bearing on the fact that they were ranked contenders! Now having been proven wrong, you have altered, modified,qualified ,whatever you want to term it.and slyly inserted another totally irrelevant line which " is a top 5 contender. Bottom line Liston was beating ranked contenders in the second half of the1950's. You should get a job moving goal posts because you do it automatically and compulsively.
second half of the 1950s? Sonny fought once from December 1955 until January 1958! Liston was rated off the back of his string of 7 wins since coming out of jail in 1958. But none of them were rated. I think for the 1950s decade he fought two men that at one time had a rating. Still, If Liston was beating name opponents in the last part of the 1950s Time Magazine did not think so: "Whatever his connections, many boxing buffs see Liston as the U.S.'s most promising challenger for Sweden's Johansson, even though Liston has so far fought only second-raters." -August 1959 (right after Liston had KO'd Nino Valdes) No I think I said Liston only started beating men rated above him in 1960. Which is how one climbs the ratings. Liston beat three good contenders that year and that is more than enough. Harris and Foley were real statements. I think he beat a rated fighter in 1959 who was behind him in the ranks at the time. who was ranked among ben wise, daniels, ernie cabb, mederos, whitehurst, bethea, valdez, besmanoff, howard king and wesphal?
not for the period I was answering to. Please check what I was asked. Bucceroni was ranked during the reign of Marciano. He was even mentioned as one of the logical challengers to Marciano by the IBA. However, I was replying to the statement “Lastarza never beat a rated fighter in his career”. So Brion was ranked too. golden feather said Cokkell never beat a rated fighter in his career. under that criteria I could have included Tommy Farr as well as Mathews, Lastarza and Johnny Williams in my reply. Don was a legit #2 challenger. Nobody gets handed a ranking like that without beating rated fighters.
Total nonsense. If it's valid to make an early pick in such circumstances in real life (which it is) it's perfrectly valid to do it in fantasy. There's nothing wrong with it, at all. What is happening is that people are picking Marciano to suffer an early knockout loss. It is not enough for you to say "i disagree, here is why" you have to say "it is completely wrong, in principle, to predict an early knockout" so stupid it's hard to type. You are assuming one of these two positions. 1) people who picked Terry McGovern to knockout Erne early were doing something intrinsically wrong even though they were right because early picks when two greats meet are wrong or 2) It's ok to make a pick in a real life fight of an early knockout in such circumstances but less than valid to do so in a totally made up fantasy fight...so funny. just out of interest, when someone gets such a prediction right, so if someone predicted Foreman by early KO over Frazier, or McGovern by early KO over Erne, they're being presumptuous?
What are you talking about? GoldenFeather's statement was that after his loss to Satterfield Williams went 34-3-1 over the next 10 years, which takes him up to 1964 when he got shot. How have you managed to convince yourself that he only has one win over a ranked contender during that time? In any case, since you're giving Cockell and LaStarza credit for wins against opponents who held a ranking at any point in their careers, I assume you're giving Williams the same credit for his wins over Terrell, Richardson, Holman, Johnson and Bethea.
I acknowledge the Terrell win (when he was unranked) The disqualification win over Richardson and the wins over fringe guys he beat Holman and Bethea. But we both know none of those wins are title shot worthy are they? All bunched together it’s not enough. They are just fringe type fare. The only thing Williams could have done to get a title shot was win that eliminatior with Machen when eddie was highly ranked or the rematch with Terrell when he was highly ranked. He blew both fights. The difference is, whilst he had a ranking, Cokkell beat Lastarza right after he fought Rocky. That’s how he got the #2 ranking that led to the title shot. And nobody is saying Cokkell was Marcianos best opponent.
so GoldenFeather's statement was that after his loss to Satterfield Williams went 34-3-1 over the next 10 years, which takes him up to 1964 (when he got shot) ? well isnt this sandwiched by two knockout defeats that we can’t include because he was decked 6 times? Is that so 34-5-1 can become 34-3-1? What isn’t mentioned in this 10 year period is that It is not clear if Williams ever really improved from the loss to Satterfeild since none of the guys he beat were noticeably better than Satterfeild. The next guy with a pulse that Williams fought after Satterfeild was Sonny Liston. We know what happened there. Taking into account Rischer, miteff, Holman, Daniels, Young Jack Johnson..were those dudes noticeably better than Bob Satterfeild? I don’t think so. Then he lost a rematch to Terrell and drew with Machen... If anything, I think the record shows uif Williams only fought guys as good or better than Satterfeild he would not have won another fight. so who are the rated guys Williams beat? Daniels and Miteff? Were those guys better than the guys who beat Williams either side of his 10 year prime?
You are doing it again! Bethea and Valdes were ranked ,so was Summerlin I couldn't give a wet **** what Time Magazine said about Liston ,the point is he beat ranked contenders BEFORE 1960. I am new here, but you are a singularly unrewarding poster to debate with,and looking at some of the responses to your posts ,that appears to be somewhat of a consensus on this forum !
Feels like you could have saved yourself a lot of typing by just admitting that you made a mistake when you claimed Williams only had one win against a contender during that period.
Quick question, do you think Marciano lacked one punch power? IMO, Marciano beat better men than Dempsey did.
