Max Baer vs joe frazier

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Grapefruit, Dec 22, 2017.



  1. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member Full Member

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    Is there even an argument about this?

    Myself, I'll take the boxer over the toughman.
     
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  2. escudo

    escudo Boxing Addict Full Member

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    No uppercut means no problem for Joe.
     
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  3. Balder

    Balder Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Great post.
     
  4. El Hans

    El Hans Member banned Full Member

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    [
    Joe is a top tier fighter Baer was outboxed by several lesser opposition in his prime Baer has the strength to muscle Joe but all he can do is hold his chin isn't as sturdy as Chuvalo''s and we saw that gruesome mauling unfold its what happens when you stalk Joe, Foreman was as much Joes Boogeyman as Norton was Ali's Joe's style meant he couldn't adapt and Ali barely overcome the style disadvantage against Norton, Man slayer Maxxie is the Wilder of his day a brawler that throws caution to the wind and leads chin first the comparison with George is shocking he as much in common with George truthfully as a mule Foreman was literally better in all ways but Stamina and was an intelligent brute in comparison.
    Joe would dismantle Baer by the seventh he'd have seen Joe's left hand more times then Fraizers watch and if Maxxie cuddled like Klit and his chin held out for fifteen he'd lose a wide UD with broken ribs.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
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  5. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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  6. Hookandjab

    Hookandjab Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Thanks for the feedback. I disagree that Frazier beat Oscar decisively in the second bout. Many fans are of the opinion that Oscar won the last five rounds.the The two demolitions at the hands of Foreman, the two knockdowns at the hands of Bonavena, and the near-knockdiwn from the right hand of Manuel Ramos lead me to conclude that Joe would be in jeopardy against any murderous puncher. That would include many others besides Max Baer. I think that Baer would destroy Joe.
     
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  7. Balder

    Balder Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Max would tee off on Joe, the only way Joe can win is if Baer gets outworked over the distance.
     
  8. Smokin Bert

    Smokin Bert Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I think you are in the minority on this. Joe would lay a savage beating on Baer. Just like Louis did.
     
  9. BrutalForeman

    BrutalForeman Active Member Full Member

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    If they fight in Max's era, he may be investigated on murder charges again

    In Joe's era, the larger gloves save Joe from that fate, and he simply takes a horrible beating

    Baer didn't have two handed power, but his right may have been the hardest ever. When Dempsey says he has terrible power, that means something.

    Baer's overhand right may be greater than Foreman's uppercut. Unknown but possible.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
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  10. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Joe Frazier only lost to Ali and Foreman. Baer was neither.

    Frazier by KO.
     
  11. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Max Baer was knocked out only twice in his career, against Lou Nova and Joe Louis. Frazier isn't similar to them and definitelt didn't have Louis power. Maxie wouldn't be counted out.
     
  12. Golden_Feather99

    Golden_Feather99 Active Member Full Member

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    Tbh, I've only seen the 11 minute video on youtube. Apparently there's no footage of the entire fight. At least not on the internet. I see Frazier beating the hell out of Bonavena. The scorecards read 70-67, 74-64, 72-64. Simpler version: 8-5-2, 11-1-3, 11-3-1. AP Scorecard was 72-63. That's 12 rounds to 3. In my opinion, that looks like a decisive win. Some people actually call it a beatdown.

    "The 3-1 favored Philadelphian hit the 26-year-old South American with everything he had throughout the scrap but couldn't drop the strong-jawed, bloodied challenger who went the limit with Frazier for the second time. Frazier, 203 pounds to Bonavena's 207, opened cuts over both of Bonavena's eyes, on the bridge of his nose and raised lumps on Oscar's face with his relentless pounding. ... Bonavena, fighting most of the way with his back to the ropes and his hands held high in a peek-a-boo defense, absorbed a fierce pounding to the head and body as he apparently waited to get home one big bomb. He never came close." Associated Press

    According to the video I watched, the first round was scored even by the 3 judges. Bonavena was "slightly" ahead on points after 4 rounds on the cards. So I'm assuming he was up 2-1-1. Frazier won round 5 and 6. Bonavena won 7 and 8 by a "slim margin". Rounds 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 were "all Frazier's with Joe punching away at the defensive minded Bonavena". Round 14 was scored for Joe Frazier. The video shows round 1, 5, 6, 14, 15. In 14 and 15, Frazier pinned him to the ropes and beat him up. Oscar fought back but in spurts, he was outworked for the most part.

    I'm gonna take a guess here.

    I think the first judge scored it 3-0-1 Bonavena for the first 4 rounds. Also gave him the 2 close rounds (7 and 8). And scored another round a draw (maybe 15). We get 8-5-2.

    The second judge scored it 11-1-3. He might have scored the first 4 rounds 1-0-3 for Oscar and gave Frazier everything after 4. The commentator did say Bonavena won 7 and 8 by a small margin. He might've meant Oscar won on 2/3 cards.

    The third judge scored it 11-3-1. I'd say he had it 2-1-1 Bonavena after 4 rounds. He also gave Bonavena round 7 or 8. So Bonavena wins 3 rounds in total.

    Bonavena's best work was done in the first 8 rounds.

    Ok. Bonavena dropped him with a straight right hand. The second knockdown was a left hook. Ramos hurt him with a right uppercut. Ramos could punch. But Frazier recovered within seconds. Those aren't the punches Max is known for. Max was known for his telegraphed overhand right. It takes more than just a puncher to beat Frazier. Baer would get lit up with that left hook while Baer would hardly land his right. Baer didn't have good defense and he wasn't a counter-puncher. Frazier would force him to fight on the inside.

    I also disagree about Baer's punching power. A "murderous puncher" is definitely an overstatement. He might be the most overrated puncher in heavyweight history (imo). He was landing so-called "bombs" on Schmeling for 10 rounds before he finally dropped him. Schmeling didn't have a great chin and he weighed 189 lbs. If I replace him with a prime Frazier who had incredible head movement and a relentless pace, I see Baer getting smashed. Baer would have to use his jab to keep Frazier away but he didn't have a good jab. That telegraphed right hand is gonna go over Frazier's head. And he will eat a left hook every time he telegraphs that right hand. Baer couldn't fight on the inside. Frazier puts his forehead on your chest and goes to work. Baer would have no room to punch. He couldn't keep Schmeling off of him. He will get beaten to pulp on the inside against Frazier. As would most people tbf. All Baer has is a right hand and I don't see some crafty set-ups that make me think he could land it against Frazier. Frazier will batter him similar to how Louis did. Which brings me to my next point. Louis didn't have a great chin. Louis battered Baer and 9 months later he was stopped by Schmeling. Louis was dropped by ordinary fighters during his reign. Baer hit him with a few right hands but Louis took them without any trouble. Louis didn't fight like Frazier but where did he have the most success against Max? Inside. On the outside, Louis was just using his jab because he couldn't miss. When they got up close, you see how weak Baer's inside game is. He doesn't move his head and he only punches when he's not getting hit. He is only effective if he has space. You know who's great at taking away space and making you uncomfortable? Smokin' Joe. This fight won't take place on the outside because it doesn't need to. If Ali couldn't keep Frazier away, I highly doubt Baer could. I don't see how anyone can pick Baer in this one. Unless you make picks based on puncher's chance.

    Prime Max Baer went 15 rounds against Braddock, 11 against Carnera, 10 against Schmeling, 7 against Griffith, 10 against Schaaf, and 20 against Levinsky. All these fights happened back to back. I'm not picking the fights that suit my argument. This was his prime. His fights lasted an average of 12.1 rounds. That doesn't look like a murderous puncher to me. Braddock was 16 lbs lighter, Schmeling 14, Griffith 16, Levinsky 6. Obviously Carnera was massive but not exactly a great fighter. Schaaf weighed 9 lbs more than Baer. I don't see how Baer was this one punch KO artist he's made out to be. His fights and his record doesn't support that claim.

    Look at Frazier's run from Buster Mathis to Ali. He stopped an undefeated Buster Mathis in the 11th round. Mathis was 40 lbs heavier and a much better fighter than Carnera. Frazier was the first fighter to stop Ramos. Knocked him out in the 2nd round. First fighter to stop Jerry Quarry. First fighter to stop Jimmy Ellis. Jimmy Ellis' previous 4 fights- Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena, Jerry Quarry, Floyd Patterson. 51 rounds against good punchers and none of them dropped him. Ellis dropped Bonavena twice. Just to show you Ellis could punch. Frazier dropped him twice in the 4th round and Ellis didn't come out for the 5th. Frazier KO'd prime Bob Foster in 2nd round. Dropped Ali in the 15th. No one else really dropped 70s Ali. Wepner was a body shot and it was more Ali being off-balance. I'll take Frazier's left hook over Baer's right hand any day. Frazier was so much better than Baer, it's not even up for debate. I give Baer a puncher's chance and that's about it. Frazier was stopped by one fighter and that's George Foreman. Max is nowhere near Foreman's level. Idk what fights people have seen to rate Baer's power so highly. He was a very good puncher but he's not above Frazier. I wanna see someone make a case for Max being a bigger puncher than Frazier. Because I can't see it.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
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  13. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Baer had power in both hands, he had strong left hook and lethal body punches. His "one-dimentionalness" is a bit overstated.
     
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  14. Cecil

    Cecil Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Baer was no Foreman.
    Frazier decimates him.
     
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