Sugar Ray never truly beat me & he knows it

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mark ant, Jun 5, 2019.



  1. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Failed again. Still waiting for those answers. I gave you answers. I completely disagree that Duran fighting 15 years after Hearns means he was prime in the 80's. Yet I acknowledge that it's indeed a fact. Just a fact missing context. Just like I did with other "facts" you stated, even when I disagree with what it means. Yet here, you can't even do that, and answer a simple question objectively and state them as facts or false. That is why people don't take you seriously on this matter because you can't even answer simple questions objectively.
     
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  2. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    Let me rephrase that.

    He quit to avoid an embarrassing, humiliating loss and further punishment.

    Compare that to Holyfield going out on his shield against Bowe or Wladmir vs Joshua. There's a reason they're praised despite losing those fights.
     
  3. Saad54

    Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Lol.

    In the fight that mattered Leonard knocked out Hearns. The Hagler fight was very close, but he got the nod. He evened the score with Duran, who embarasisingly quit.

    The other fights you mentioned are of less historical consequence. Especially Norris and Camacho.

    I can envision you saying , if the two Hearns results were switched, "Hearns won the one that mattered."

    Just a blantantly subjective post by you.
     
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  4. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    What is the definition of taken seriously? Some sort of high five on the message board? I don't need to be in the popular crowd on here, I just don't think Duran/and his followers/fans are fair to boxing history. They are misrepresenting the facts and bending them to make Duran look better in regards to his losses. Naturally that happens, but when people buy into the misrepresentation and see it as truth then the unfairness begins. Unfairness to the guys who beat him.

    Duran is not bigger than boxing. Leonard beat him convincingly. Hearns knocked Duran cold, and Leonard beat him more convincingly than Hearns. Why? Because Ray made him quit. And in the third fight he beat him in almost every round. And the thread says Sugar Ray never truly beat me. What does Ray truly have to do? Fight Duran's fight and beat him at his own game? See the illogical of Duran's thinking. If they don't fight his way they didn't win. But by boxing rules, Ray sort of outclassed him in the 2nd and 3rd fights.
     
  5. Balder

    Balder Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Duran beat Camacho , despite the decision loss in one of the worst robberies I have seen, Duran was 45 years old. ( Leonard got Koed) that is why it is worth paying attention.

    All of his fights past welter, Duran had the build of a pillow. To hold losses against him at that stage of his career seems a little harsh.

    Duran is just plain better overall though, and in the night they fought at their best Duran won despite being smaller than Leonard.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  6. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Duran was not this fat chubby guy at 154. He looked fine against Benitez just a year after Leonard 2-at 154 for Benitez. Hearns went up in weight. Toney. Jones. They all did. Duran at 154 was not a stretch, since he fought as high as 168 15 years after he fought Hearns and Hagler (at 160). Duran was not better. Ray reached a higher level and beat a higher level than Duran did.
     
  7. Golden_Feather99

    Golden_Feather99 Active Member Full Member

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    Duran and Leonard are 1-1.

    Leonard is 2-1 against Duran if he's 1-1 against Hearns. I did score that fight for Hearns (by 1 point).

    Leonard-Duran II took place 5 months after the first fight.

    Duran won the lightweight title on June 26, 1972. His reign lasted 6½ years. Duran vacated his titles in January 1979. But the last time he fought at lightweight was in January 1978 (De Jesus III). So 5½ years basically.

    During those 5½ years, Duran fought 35 times. 1 fight every 56 days. But a lot of these fights were non-title fights (stay busy fights). Let's count the real fights. 13 title fights + non title bout against De Jesus (L). 14 fights in 66 months. 1 fight every 4 months and 21 days. Duran unified the division in January 1978 by beating De Jesus (WBC champion). Fought 3 more times in 1978 and 3 times in 1979.

    Duran had 2 fights in 1980 (Jan and Feb) before he fought Ray Leonard (June). A 4 month break.

    Duran fought Leonard in a rematch 5 months after the first fight. That was the biggest layoff of his career. He's supposed to be well rested, not under-prepared. And both fighters had 5 months. It's not like Leonard played Duran. He was in shape, Duran wasn't. 5 months is enough time to get out of shape and get back in shape. Duran has done this before, many times.

    I don't think it's fair to make excuses for Duran. Because we can also make excuses for Leonard. Leonard fought Green 2 months and 20 days before the Duran fight. Duran had a 4 month break. We can say Leonard was burnt out. Leonard had been a pro for 3 years and 3 months. Maybe he wasn't experienced enough the first time he fought Duran. I'm just trying to even things out.

    Duran fought 3 times in 1979. Only Palomino was a ranked fighter (2nd best welterweight I believe).

    Leonard fought 9 times in 1979. Beat ranked welterweights- Johnny Grant (#4 contender), Andy Price (#10), Pete Ranzany (#6). Adolfo Viruet was #9 ranked junior welterweight. Leonard also beat 2 ranked middleweights- Marcos Geraldo (#4), Tony Chiaverini (#8). And his last fight of 1979 was against the WBC/Lineal champion Wilfred Benitez. Benitez gave Leonard a tough fight. Ray beat 7 ranked contenders within 12 months (more like 10½ months). That's an insane schedule.

    Leonard fought once and Duran fought twice in 1980 (before their fight in June). Duran fought unranked fighters but Leonard defended his title against the #8 welterweight contender Dave Boy Green.

    Leonard was far more active and was fighting far superior opposition leading up to their first fight.

    Leonard has one of the greatest resumes in boxing history (in terms of quality). Ray had fought once in 5 years and 2 months when he came back to fight Hagler in 1987. That one fight doesn't really mean much (Kevin Howard fight). I don't care how washed up Hagler was, he was a heavy favourite, a natural MW and one of the best MWs ever. That is one of the greatest wins in boxing history. Duran's win over Leonard is also one of the greatest wins (greater than Leonard-Hagler). But Leonard also beat Benitez, Hearns, and Duran. Very few fighters can match those wins. Duran isn't way above Leonard. Duran beat great fighters at 135 and 147. Leonard beat great fighters at 147 and 160. Duran beat Barkley at 160, Leonard beat Kalule at 154. Duran beat Moore at 154, Leonard beat Lalonde at 168 and Chiaverini at 154.

    Duran and Leonard aren't far apart in all-time rankings. Both have a case to be ranked above the other. Quality vs quantity imo.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
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  8. mark ant

    mark ant Canelo was never athletic Full Member

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    No, Hearns was awesome v Duran.
     
  9. mark ant

    mark ant Canelo was never athletic Full Member

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    Leonard was very poor in the Lalonde fight compared to the other wins you mentioned.
     
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  10. mark ant

    mark ant Canelo was never athletic Full Member

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    Duran was quicker at welter than at 154.
     
  11. DJN16

    DJN16 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I have never said Duran is a better fighter than Leonard, nor vice versa.

    You judge Duran black and white, whereas really you have to look at the whole context of the man.

    Most fighters idolise Duran.
     
  12. DJN16

    DJN16 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Although I want to use the argument Duran had way more pro fights than Leonard and started his pro career in 1968, he only had around 16 amateur fights.


    Leonard had about 180 odd.

    Has to be taken in account when comparing longevity etc.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  13. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Nope, I could care less about the narrative you keep trying to push and how you interpret them. I'd like simple answers to the questions I asked. Why is it that I can say, yes, that is a fact to the things you say, even when I disagree with what those facts mean? You seem incapable of doing that, which again, speaks volumes. I'll await your answers.
     
  14. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Good breakdown. The thing is, not only was it the longest break, but the significance of that is being undersold here. As you illustrate he took MANY non-title stay busy fights in between his title fights. That is because, he'd BLOW up in between fights, so they used the non title fights to keep him active and to get in down in weight for a title fight coming up next. That is exactly why he was still the LW champion but had fights at 140, 147 and even 154 while still LW champion. However, he's taking those fights because he wasn't LW ready after his last title defense, and why, because he was blowing up in between fights. Difference here is, after the first SRL fight, he had no tune up fights to get his weight down more conservatively and keep him sharp. His very next fight was against SRL, and he had to lose all the weight he had put on without a fight between.
     
  15. Golden_Feather99

    Golden_Feather99 Active Member Full Member

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    Leonard was past his prime and he was coming off a 19 month layoff. He didn't look good but very poor is a bit harsh. He was fighting a much bigger fighter and a capable fighter. And Leonard stopped Lalonde.