Archie Moore (of the Rocky fight) Vs Bob Fitzsimmons (Of Jeffries II)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BitPlayerVesti, Jun 21, 2018.



  1. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Now I wonder, who was the biggest Fitz victims among legit fighter-level? Dunkhorst was one, Ruhlin the other. Is there anyone else?
     
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    " There is no question that Fitzsimmons had a heavyweights punching power. In 1893, he knocked out seven men in one night and accomplished the feat in under nineteen rounds. All men weighed over 200 pounds. One stood 6-7 and weighed in at 240 pounds. The fact that a middleweight could knock out a man the size of Lennox Lewis demonstrates his worth as a hitter. Fitzsimmons actually defeated top heavyweight contenders Peter Maher, Gus Ruhlin and Tom Sharkey all by knockout. "

    [url]http://coxscorner.tripod.com/fitz.html[/url]
     
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  3. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I ment quality level fighters. Ruhlin is great win and Dunkhorst is also quite impressive. Are there any more like that?
     
  4. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    What is impressive about Dunkhorst? He got beaten by about every mid-level fighter he faced. He was just another turn of the century clod.
     
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  5. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He beat Armstrong and drew with Hall. He wasn't good but at least he wasn't terrible. Most of bigmen Archie faced weren't better than him, though he had some wins over much better bigmen than Ed.
     
  6. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Fitz was a gangly banger, much in the form of Bob Foster, another great lightheavyweight - Moore would stop both men - Archie had power,craft and Mongoose type ring smarts- now Tunney may beat all 3- May - Charles beats all 4 and throw in Mike Spinks
     
  7. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    He beat 5 fighters with winning records. One of them he outweighed by 60+ pounds, another 50 pounds.

    I don't mean to trash on Dunkhorst. He was a project who was learning on the job. According to some accounts he actually had talent, was quick and moved well, but relied on his bulk above all. And then there is the issue of this bulk. I saw two accounts that listed him at 6 foot and 225 pounds, a giant for the day, but not as large as some of the claims I have seen listed. Others infer 6-2 or so. My main points is that Ed Dunkhorst is a time filler opponent, not a top quality pelt (tho we do have to account for HOW Bob dispatched him).

    EDIT... I just ran across an Obit from 1915 that claims Dunkhorst was 6 foot 7 and weighed 672 pounds. Now, THAT would be a superheavweight!
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
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  8. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It's fair to pick Moore, but Fitz himself was extremely smart fighter who relied a lot on tactics and understanding opponents weaknesses. He was far more than just a banger and I would say he was clearly more inteligent fighter than Foster who never adjusted his style. Fitz didn't have style - he could be slugger, counter puncher, swarmer and even a boxer. He's more like Archie than Foster in that aspect in my opinion.
     
  9. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Abe Cougle had atleast one fight before hand, which went 54 rounds
    [url]https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC18900410.2.14&txq=+Abe+Cougle[/url]

    Thinking they had no previous fights because boxrec says so is not a good assumption to make with fighters of this period.

    Jersey Bellew (the last person Fitz fought), seems to have had a good number of fights too
     
  10. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Abe Cougle, as said above, had fought a 54 round draw. I'll leave it to you to decide if he counts.
    Charlie Haghey is listed as weighing 190 in one fights, you'd need to look into it to see how big he was.
     
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  11. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Considering he won the title at 154Ibs, I think his KOs of top fighters bigger than Light Heavyweights are crazy impressive, even if they were on the small side for heavyweights.

    Corbett's weight was above Holyfields for several of his world Cruiserweight title fights. Would anyone not be impressed by a former Light Middlweight champion blasting out all the top cruiserweights?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
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  12. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Fits lands his money punch and gets the KO win at some point during 15, I'd say he gets dropped tho Moore is a very real live dog
     
  13. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It is a solid point that the records way back then are spotty, so these men might have had fights which don't appear on official records. This includes Jeffries. But it is also true that the accuracy of size claims might be equally dubious. Charley Puff is both listed as weighing 230 and as being a light-heavyweight. What is clear is that Ruhlin was the biggest real contender Fitz beat, and Dunkhorst is the biggest trial horse or journeyman type he beat. In fairness, both were brutally KO'd and there is no question Fitz was an extremely impressive puncher. My point is that Moore actually beat far more good big men and good big men who were bigger. Valdes & Baker were top contenders. Lavorante and Parker at their peak were top ten men. Cestac and Davidson decent trial horses.

    Here is a comparison of Dunkhorst with big but lesser Moore opponents:

    Ed Dunkhorst--had 32 fights. Won 16, lost 9, drew 6, with 1 NC. Scored 12 KO's. Was KO'd 4 times. Defeated Bob Armstrong, and also drew with Armstrong twice, and with Jim Hall.

    Abel Cestac--had 55 fights. Won 38, lost 14, drew 3. Scored 32 KO's. Was KO'd 3 times. Defeated Walter Hafer, Joe Muscato, Bill Weinberg, Bill Wilson, Buddy Scott, and Earl Walls.

    Embrell Davidson--had 42 fights. Won 36, lost 6. Scored 25 KO's. Was KO'd 5 times. Defeated Marty Marshall and John Holman.

    George Parmentier--had 32 fights. Won 18, lost 12, drew 4. Scored 15 KO's. Was KO'd 7 times. Defeated Buddy Scott and Frank Buford.

    Parmentier is an obscure Moore opponent. Still his record is not that far from that of Dunkhorst and he was big at 6' 6" and 233 lbs. Perhaps a bigger man than an in shape Dunkhorst. He is the only one I would consider a lesser fighter than Dunkhorst.
     
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  14. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yeah, watching Moore destroying much larger fighters is just amazing. Such a shame that we don't have much of Fitz footage doing the same...
     
  15. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Dunkhorst wasn't an especially good fighter, but he was a tough one, and was used as a sparring partner by top fighters like Jeffries and Tommy Ryan.

    Beating him isn't so much impressive as the spectacular KO.