Send in an ATG to beat Prime Liston (mid to late 50's version)

How does he rate as CHAMPION.....when he has a big cloud hanging over the 2 debacles with Ali in '64 and '65?

 

It gave me a chuckle I must admit

 

He had a shoulder I jury that 8 doctors testified to. He couldn't even move his shoulder for ****s sake!

 

Not highly,he had the misfortune to defend his title against the greatest heavyweight ever,imo.Doing so when he was past his prime and with just 3 rounds of ring action in the previous 3 years .A better question would be.
If Patterson had not avoided Liston and defended against him when he first should have, how many defences would Sonny have racked up prior to meeting Ali?
Harris,Folley,Machen,Williams?And a Patterson rematch , that's 5 good names right there.Then you would be saying he was a fine champion.

 

People overestimate Liston imo. Stuff like, I wouldn't favor anybody over Liston, expect maybe Ali..... Really? I'd favor Ali, Lewis, Foreman, Tyson, Louis and Holmes... Possibly Holy, Vlad, Fury,

 

Fixed

 

No he wouldn't be

 

I couldn't disagree more, Evander was in his prime and couldn't get rid of a 42 year old George Foreman, he even lost the 12th round with a 42 year old Holmes and was life and death with Bert Cooper. A prime Sonny goes straight at Holyfield behind maybe, the hardest jab in heavyweight history, when the inevitable exchange occurs Evander will wobble and Sonny KO's him in about 10.

 

or... when the inevitable exchanges occur, Liston folds under the pressure and will of Holy

 

If an old slow Foreman and a slogging Bert Cooper can find Holyfield, then a prime Liston can. A prime Liston would be the most dangerous fighter he ever fought, far more than Tyson. Honestly, do you see Evander Holyfield surviving a firefight with Charles Sonny Liston? I can't

 

Ali would always beat Liston - he followed rather than cut off the ring efficiently and whilst strong as an ox, was actually smaller than Ali in height and doesn't have the footspeed or handspeed to outbox a 1967 Ali in my opinion.

Unfortunately, you cannot dismiss what happened in the ring in the first fight solely due to Sonny's age as it is a question of styles. Ali showed that he could slip the Liston jab both inside and outside and that he could control ring centre by coming off of his toes and boxing off the jab and pivoting at different stages of the fight. A stronger, more confident Ali of 1967 boxes smarter, expends less energy and can walk through the fire to beat a prime Liston.

I favour Holmes, Lewis, maybe Vitali and think that a Tyson Fury could make it an interesting spectacle and would outbox Liston, however, I do expect Liston to land and I am not sure that Wilder is as adept at setting up the boom as Liston was.

Joe Louis would find Liston's ability to fight well from all ranges frustrating but Louis was quicker with the hands and hits with arguably more power and sharpness. I would favour Louis down the stretch if he isn't knocked out inside 8 rounds.

Tyson or a Marciano vs Liston would be fantastic spectacles because of the intangiables and the stylistic match up. I wouldn't call these fights either way. I can argue for both options of stoppage win here.

 

Just like he folded against Williams, Valdez, and DeJohn?

 

Are you equating these fighters to Holyfield? Cause I certainly wouldn't. Besides Ali, Holyfield would be the best fighter Liston ever faced. While Liston MIGHT be the best Holy faced, but it's not as definitive as the inverse. Point is, he folded, twice in title fights, for whatever reason makes you feel better, but it happened. That isn't the type of guy that I would be sure beats the best version of Holy

 

49-0 suggests otherwise.