How great was Willard's KO over Jack Johnson

So why do you even bother talking about things you don't know anything about and don't care to learn anything about?

 

I tried watching for about 5 minutes and the footage was terrible.

 

Most people who have seen the footage readily agree Johnson did his best but just ran out of steam as the fight went on.
Johnson had not been in top shape for years,his lifestyle ,his general condition , coupled with all the distractions of being an exile and his age, 37 meant that he was ready for the taking and Willard ,trained to the minute with a top chin,was simply the right man ,in the right place ,at the right time.

 

You don't have to like watching old fights, most people don't lile watching non HD footage. Just don't use such a strong words to describe things you don't know anything about.

 

70's,

Thanks for breaking down the film Appreciated, but now you are sending mixing messages. You said two landed, at the 3:00 mark now you're saying one definitely did. Which is it? I see one that landed.

No, I did not see the uppercut land at the 5:01 mark. I agree Johnson won the round I watched, but one round out of 20 does not determine who was the better on the outside.

I think the fight was close, and Johnson edged. I think Moran, who was not paid a dime in the fight, and had to endure Johnson's cheap fouls, such as hitting on the break was picked for a reason.

That reason was he was already stopped 3 times prior by journeyman, lost Ross ( who was terrible and Johnson beat in a six round title shot ) Gunboat Smith, ( who Johnson sparred with ) and McCarthy.

I can't see one reason or big name that Moran beat to earn this title shot, and he'd never get one with the exact same record if he was around today. Yet despite all of the above, he was competitive with the champion.

Moran can be seen vs Willard as well. Willard beat him by a larger margin than Johnson did. Moran stayed clear of Willard.

 

Johnson was 36 for the Moran match, the year before he struggled and was close to being stopped by Jim Battling Johnson, a fight that was ruled a draw in ten rounds. Had the fight been 15 or 20, we have a new champion. I suspect Battling Jim was the better on that day, as one of the judges voted for him, the two others voted draw.

I agree Johnson lost steam in the later rounds vs Moran, he commented as such after the fight saying he wasn't sure he could go 20, but he had to say with my lifestyle, as if to excuse the performance.

My point is Johnson picked easier marks like this for reasons, Battling Jim Johnson had the record of a good journeyman, failing to beat the best more often than not and losing or drawing to the average at times. He had already lost 10 times and drew 5 in , but Like Willard he was a big man for his time who Johnson could not hurt. Had Johnson wanted more money, he could have liked Langford, or Jeannette and the live gate in France would be MUCH better.

I suspect Johnson was there to be taken as early as 1912 vs. a quality opponent. Many at ringside felt Flynn had plenty left and Johnson was fading in their 1912 DQ match. I have no doubt Johnson was well in the lead, but that doesn't matter in much in a 45 round fight contest.

I do agree Willard was the right man in the right place at the right time. I also say many others could have been " that man " in 1915, 1914, 1913, and 1912. Those others were Langford, Jeannette, Mcvey, GB Smith, McCarty, ...clearly steps above Flynn, Battling Jim Johnson, and Frank Moran. It a shame that we never saw Johnson vs the best as Champion.

"Jack Johnson barely missed losing his heavyweight championship in a ten round bout here last night. Jeffries' conqueror met Battling Jim Johnson, a big negro from Memphis Tenn. and barely lasted through the final round. He was tottering and groggy at the finish. A few rounds more and he might have been knocked out. . . . In the last minute of the fight the Memphis negro rushed Johnson to the ropes and in a mixup both went to the floor, with Jack's arm around Jim's waist. Both were on their feet quickly but Jack looked exhausted just as the final bell rang. It is possible that Jack hurt his arm in the fall to the floor. . . . In the seventh round the Memphis man succeeded in breaking down Jack's guard and three times after landing on the body grazed Jack's jaw with terrific uppercuts"

 

In my opinion both landed, but the footage doesn't show it clearly. Either way, Johnson definitely scored here.

I broke down all 20 minutes long video, not only first round. Johnson was clearly better in the whole video and Moran had very few decent moments.

 

Only one of the three punches you describe landed. The uppercut if it was thrown must have been rubbed out of the film as no such punch landed I did not see Moran's head move at all at the mark where you said it was thrown.

You gave a brief description of the action, the way you write it very few punches landed in the 20 minutes of action. I think you undersold Moran's action a bit and over stated Johnson's. I saw a tame round one, which Johnson won, and part of round five, which was Moran's round. I can watch more later.

There is a bit more film than shown on youtube. I have seen it, and this includes the moment when Moran lands a good one, and Johnson applauds him.

Either way it was a close fight. When I say Johnson doesn't match up well vs. fighters past his time and say its because he doesn't throw a lot of punches and lack power, only opens up when he's hurt or the other guys is fading out. Johnson he had issues with boxers faced and didn't have a good chin when someone who could punch landed.

The best person he defeated in a title match was whom? Maybe Frank Moran. Moran was never a top five talent while Johnson was active. Maybe not even top ten. Yet that is his best title defense? I just cannot understand how someone who watches the films or reads the news clips can disagree with these facts in general.

 

Of course it Moran head, are we watching the same video?

It is included on YT video and it was one of the 2 times Moran found Johnson head in 20 minutes of action. The punch was decent and Frank set it up in creative way, but it didn't hurt Johnson. It was also probably the only time Moran landed anything significant on Johnson. I have this punch in my breadown.

It wasn't, at least based on footage we have. Maybe Moran did much better in the rounds we don't have but it's unlikely because Johnson didn't look in danger at any point of the fight and he schooled Moran both at the beggining and at the end of the fight.

If he didn't have good chin then he had to have ATG defense based on his results at HW. Your extreme dislike of Johnson makes you very biased against him. I don't want to defend him anymore, as he's not my favorite fighter at all.

 

You are describing punches that just aren't there on film! I'm not being biased, just confirming the action on the film. Schooled Moran? More like he just did enough. Maybe I should watch more of the break down after round five and see it its accurate. I let the film rule and use reason. If it doesn't color Jack a positive light, so be it. I'll stand on everything I said. Johnson fought dirty vs Moran, and should have been docked a point, or would have with a modern ref. Not only did he hit Moran flush on the break, he would pinch his biceps on the clinches.

Johnson was capped by a light heavyweight in 3 rounds and nearly KO'd by Ketchel, a middle weight by the addition of those ringside and Johnson himself. Ketche who was short and not skilled could not land much, but when he did it was telling.. Pretty much the story of Johnson's title opponents, minus Willard who wasn't old and rusty, or short. He was knocked silly by Gunboat Smith in their 4 round ex match in 1909 as Champion. Heck, even Tony Ross a very average fighter who somehow got a title shot on a losing streak hurt Johnson with the only solid push he landed. No way did Johnson have a good chin. He just picked the opponents who couldn't get at it often.

As for Johnson's defense, the only really good boxer he faced in a title match as Jack O'Brien, long in the tooth and giving up 40 pounds, O'Brien according to primary sources was slightly the better. I don't see this defense. O'Brien out jabbed him,

Would you agree Moran is his best title win? Yes or no?

From 1909-1915 ( Johnson championship years ), the following fighters I think were better than Moran

Langford
Wills
Jeannette
Mcvey
McCarthy
GB Smith
DIllion
Clark

You could add more.

 

Fouls as in plural?There was one foul from Johnson,a hit on the break,Moran backhanded Johnson several times.At least on the fight film I own! lol

 

Lets take a look at this list.1909-1915
Langford.In1909 Langford drew with Sandy Ferguson and Lost to Jim Flynn two Johnson victims. Langford weighed 160lbs then.

Wills, in1911 he was ko'd by Johnson's sparring partner George Cotton ko'd by Langford in1914. Who did Wills beat up to 1915 to justify him being a credible contender?

Jeannette he lost to Sandy Ferguson in1909 whom Johnson toyed with multiple times.
He drew with Al Kubiak,drew with Morris Harris whomJohnson ko'd in1 rd.
1911 he drew with Tony Ross who you say was ,and I quote "a very average fighter".
In1912 Jeannette lost to Battling Jim Johnson whom you call a journeyman,and was outboxed and lost the decisionto163lbs Jeff Clark
Smith had a run from march 1913 until July 1914 then he lost to 168lbs Carpentier and then Langford took him out and he was done as a contender.
Jack Dillon was an18 years old light weight in1909 and did not take on the bigger boys until1914 when he scaled 170lbs.

Flynn did not win a round against Johnson,the referee stated he fouled out to save himself from being ko'd.Johnson finished stronger than Battling Jim despite fighting with a broken arm.

 

Many people also think the earth is flat.

 

Not Me

 

You are describing punches that just aren't there on film! I'm not being biased, just confirming the action on the film. Schooled Moran? More like he just did enough. Maybe I should watch more of the break down after round five and see it its accurate. I let the film rule and use reason. If it doesn't color Jack a positive light, so be it. I'll stand on everything I said. Johnson fought dirty vs Moran, and should have been docked a point, or would have with a modern ref. Not only did he hit Moran flush on the break, he would pinch his biceps on the clinches.

Johnson was capped by a light heavyweight in 3 rounds and nearly KO'd by Ketchel, a middle weight by the addition of those ringside and Johnson himself. Ketche who was short and not skilled could not land much, but when he did it was telling.. Pretty much the story of Johnson's title opponents, minus Willard who wasn't old and rusty, or short. He was knocked silly by Gunboat Smith in their 4 round ex match in 1909 as Champion. Heck, even Tony Ross a very average fighter who somehow got a title shot on a losing streak hurt Johnson with the only solid push he landed. No way did Johnson have a good chin. He just picked the opponents who couldn't get at it often.

As for Johnson's defense, the only really good boxer he faced in a title match as Jack O'Brien, long in the tooth and giving up 40 pounds, O'Brien according to primary sources was slightly the better. I don't see this defense. O'Brien out jabbed him,

Would you agree Moran is his best title win? Yes or no?

From 1909-1915 ( Johnson championship years ), the following fighters I think were better than Moran

Langford
Wills
Jeannette
Mcvey
McCarthy
GB Smith
DIllion
Clark

You could add more. -Mendoza

STOP! I said from 1909-1915 and listed 8 better contenders during these years in comparison to Moran. I think Moran was likely Johnson best title defense win. Everyone has a draw or loss, Johnson had two draws during his title run,

By 1909 Langford was a world beater, a reason why Johnson broke a signed contract to meet him!
By 1914 ,Wills was better than anyone Johnson gave a title shot too. You could argue the same for Dillion and GB Smith too.
The same can be said for Jeannette McVey, or McCarthy.

It doesn't; matter who is in the lead after 8 rounds in a 45 round match. The point was Johnson was losing steam and slowing down according to those at ring side. Flynn was still fresh.

Wrong, Johnson did not finish stronger than Battling Jim Johnson. He was tired and near defeat. Read the papers Mcvey.

"Jack Johnson barely missed losing his heavyweight championship in a ten round bout here last night. Jeffries' conqueror met Battling Jim Johnson, a big negro from Memphis Tenn. and barely lasted through the final round. He was tottering and groggy at the finish. A few rounds more and he might have been knocked out. . . . In the last minute of the fight the Memphis negro rushed Johnson to the ropes and in a mixup both went to the floor, with Jack's arm around Jim's waist. Both were on their feet quickly but Jack looked exhausted just as the final bell rang. It is possible that Jack hurt his arm in the fall to the floor. . . . In the seventh round the Memphis man succeeded in breaking down Jack's guard and three times after landing on the body grazed Jack's jaw with terrific uppercuts"