Ali was way past prime vs Norton. So his weight for that bout is not representative. Ali at his best was a 210-215 pound hwt.
Clay weighed in at 210 lb (95 kg) while Liston was several pounds over his prime fighting weight at 218 lb (99 kg). Many of those watching were surprised during the referee's instructions to see that Clay was considerably taller than Liston.
He looked pretty ripped at 212 for Williams and the second Norton and Frazier fights. Seemed like that was a good, strong weight.
It really depends on his age. 212 was prime for him up to his late 20's. He went to hell and back with Frazier in their third fight at 221 1/2. That extra weight suited him at that point in his career (as long as it was trained weight, not slacking off in training and skipping meals to be lighter at the weigh-in, as he sometimes did later in his career). Three fights he trained hard for regardless of his fighting weight: Norton 3, Shavers and Spinks 2. I think in all three fights he weighed in the low 220's and he trained hard for all these fights for differing reasons. Norton; he knew it would be a hard fight at Yankee stadium and he didn't want to look bad against the body beautiful Norton. Shavers; he knew his reputation for his punching power and again, a high profile, media driven fight at Madison Square Garden. Spinks, fighting to regain his title at an advanced age and knowing how bad he looked in their first fight, plus the chance to make history as the first three time heavyweight champ, and the only black heavyweight champ to retire with the belt (up till then).
Ali was not 221 for Manila. Frazier’s weigh in weight was also not accurate by fight time. Both fighters weighed in 3-4 days prior to fight time. Considerable “drying out” occurred between the weigh in and when they stepped into the ring. If you listen to the commentators prior to the start of the fight Ken Norton gives his opinion as to both fighters actual weight.
Not splitting hairs but I double checked and I was wrong, Ali weighed in at 224 1/2 for Frazier 3. I heard that back in the day, even heavyweights would sometimes dry out before a fight but what's the thinking behind doing that before a fight in the Philippines with tropical heat and tv lights making the ring feel like 90+ degrees by fight time?
It has been said that Ali didn`t train much for the Manilla fight and his soft body looked heavier than 221.
Suggest you listen to the expert commentary of Ken Norton who was a color commentator for the fight. The weigh in was 3-4 days prior to fight time so the weights announced were more than likely too high. I believe Norton placed Ali’s weight at around 220 while Frazier was estimated at 211. Norton was obviously in tune with training procedures of the day. Both fighters were in fantastic condition. You will also hear Don Dunphy and Ken Norton talk at length concerning Frazier’s well known “slow starter” moniker.
217 was too heavy for Ali, when he was lighter than 217 he was faster than any heavyweight around 217+.
If Ali used the best modern training in terms of conditioning, what weight do you feel he would enter the ring at in this era?
Good question. Apparently Ali only tried weights before one fight in his career (Mac Foster in '72), he weighed 226 and he said that he felt a little stiff and could not get his punches off like he usually could. His training mostly consisted of calisthenics, sparring and running. Angelo Dundee hated that he would sometimes run 6 miles to and from the gym as he felt that was excessive and would shorten his career. Ali's physique was deceptive in that a lot of his weight was in his butt and strong legs (compare his legs to Larry Holmes for example). I think his old school routine was perfect for him but if he fought today, I still feel he wouldn't weigh much more than 230 at most. He was 6'3 and well proportioned. Riddick Bowe was 6'5 and his best fighting weight was somewhere in the low 240's. 6'5 Lennox Lewis looked really lean at 230 but he had such a huge frame/bone structure that he was still proportionate when he was 245+. 6'6 Deontay Wilder is well conditioned and has been as low as 212 for his title fights and performed well. Weight is so subjective (especially at heavyweight) and it really depends on the fighter. I felt David Tua was much more effective at 226 than later in his career when he fought at 240+.
