The great limit of Larry Holmes

Larry didn't take many flush shots from Cooney. He had a different dimension than Joe and he didn't have to take the shots Joe took. Frazier likely walks through Norton in a similar fashion he walked through Ali just wouldn't have to take as much because Kenny wouldn't last. Eddie Futch had said Frazier had "handled Norton in the gym".
Do you think Holmes could have taken the punches Joe took in the FOTC or Manila? I don't see him taking half of them.
Norton was a good awkward defensive fighter. He took less punishment than Joe dictated by their selective style. More of a chess player. He was knocked out early in his career by Garcia.
To your overall point I don't see Ali stopping Larry Holmes unless he was cut. It's a possibility because Ali was the quicker, slashing type puncher. I wouldn't bet on that ending though.

 

Ali was the far greater fighter. Not close. Opposition level alone put him head and shoulders above Holmes. The only areas Holmes can be compared to Ali is the jab, right hand power (and just power) and right uppercut power (and just power).

Regarding the jab Holmes was always open for right hands as he dropped his left every time he threw it. Prime Ali was far more difficult to hit as he had excellent lateral movement and his reflexes allowed him to slip blows (see his bout with Terrell).

Regarding right hands Holmes tended to loop his right while Ali threw this punch in textbook fashion straight from the shoulder.

Ali was also by far the better combination puncher. Holmes rarely threw a left hook while Ali put every punch in the book together in rapid fire, seamless fashion.

I could go on but it’s really not debatable. Ali is always rated above Holmes for a reason. Very valid reasons. One look at Ali say against Folley or Williams vs Holmes vs say Shavers or Norton tells anyone who knows the sport everything they would want to know.

 

I think Holmes could take the punches Frazier took.

 

Ali pulled his right hand out of position when he jabbed.Eddie Futch didn't think there was much between them and I agree with him.
Holmes had a torn left biceps muscle against Norton, yet he still gutted out the win

 

The Shavers I fight is one of those performances that could be rated with the 60s Ali. In more ways than one. Of course, pre-1980 Holmes was very influenced by Muhammad.

Ready for another @HOUDINI attack lol.

 

Anyone count how many times he's written this, even in just this thread alone?

I like your Houdini but your posts are getting uncaringly repetitive, and no one is buying what you're selling.

 

I didn't say he took many flush shots from Cooney, but he most certainly did get hit flush a half-dozen times or so. He took those shots, and even Foreman said Cooney had the bigger hook than Joe (and George would know...let's not forget he said that even though he and Joe were decided friends).

I absolutely believe Larry would have not only taken the FOTC shots from Joe, but would have blocked one frig of a lot more of them than Ali did. The hook was far from Larry's Achilles' heel (that was Ali, Larry was WAY more open for the right hand), and watch how he typically dealt with that punch in his title defenses...it just wasn't that easy for others to land.

Larry only started getting hit with hooks during the steepest part of his decline. He never got knocked down by a hook as champion...iirc only Weaver and Cooney (to a lesser degree Norton) was able to really land it on him, and look what happened to them.

All respect and regard for your opinions @ETM

If you're asking me whether I think Larry would have beat Joe in the FOTC...oh, nooooo no.

But remember, I'm the guy that doesn't see ANY heavyweight winning against FOTC Joe. Ever. Larry would have been even more unanimously outpointed, a less close fight than the Ali. Larry's jab would have given Joe fits in the early rounds (and Larry might have scored a knockdown with the uppercut)...but Larry always took a break after round 5 or six, and Frazier would have started getting in under the jab. I see Larry not looking too good after that and absorbing some punishment (I get the feeling Joe would have looked nearly as bad as after the Ali FOTC, because Holmes did have that cumulative factor with his punches).

Larry's deficient left hook would have definitely been another factor in his losing. In fact, Ali's superior hook helped him immeasurably in the FOTC, saved his ass more than once.

The one factor that flies in the face of the above is the fact that Larry's uppercut was the one punch he had that could be considered a one-shot power punch. And Joe was obviously open for that...Ali had nowhere near Larry's uppercut, and he landed it with impunity quite a few times in that fight.

 

If you don’t like the truth stop reading. I lived through both Ali and Holmes eras and understand both fighters technical abilities better than anyone. Ali was the far greater fighter and this is born out via his competition alone if you are to inept to understand boxing technically. It’s also born out as Ali is always placed higher all time (No 1).

 

Okay!

 

I don't think it makes sense to consider Holmes with more power. If he had more power, maybe he wouldn't have become so good a boxer.

 

He lacked the loving support that he watched Ali get during his time with him. If Larry had come up and there had been no Ali there would have been no question of his greatness and fans and boxing commentators would have been cheering him like crazy past 1980.

I don't think there are too many champs from that division that received overall the amount of booing and cheering against that Larry experienced. It was viciously unfair and though he denied it, definitely had an influence on him.

 

A bit of context. He also thinks Marciano was more skilled than Usyk and Lomachenko

 

I regret to say I'm losing the formerly significant regard I had for @HOUDINI's posts.

No offense, my friend. It's mostly just this subject...I don't feel your backing up your inflated pronouncement properly.

 

He didn't lack anything, he's a top 5 HW staple. But the thing to make him as good as a fighter as it gets he'd have to have Ali's footspeed and Patterson's hand speed.
Résumé wise he'd have had to have been born either 15 years earlier with these attributes, or 10 years later