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Fighters that couldn't be beaten in a brawl

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Sep 20, 2019.

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young griffo Boxing Addict Full Member

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Fighting Harada anyone?

He could be beaten by movement, he could be beaten if you countered him effectively but in a toe to toe brawl I'm not so sure. Perhaps a Saddler could beat him thus but it'd be tough.

Edit- Just seen roughdiamond beat me to it. Great (and in my case not so great) minds think alike.

young griffo, Sep 20, 2019

#31

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Tin_Ribs Me Full Member

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young griffo said: ↑

Good call on Fenech.

I recall Victor Callejas tried brawling and fouling early with Fenech but Fenech responded with interest with some back alley street fighting tricks and quickly took over as Callejas went from brawler to a punch bag.

Nelson also welcomed a brawl off the ropes in Las Vegas and lost that battle as well (judges decision not withstanding). Nelson learnt from that for the rematch, great fighter that he was, and was awake to Jeff's willingness to brawl also leaving him open coming in (which Payakaroon also briefly exploited until Jeff took his distance and destroyed him subsequently)
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The Callejas fight sticks out in my mind, it was the fight I was thinking of when I mentioned Fenech.

Tin_Ribs, Sep 20, 2019

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Rope-a-Dope Boxing Junkie Full Member

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Khaosai

Rope-a-Dope, Sep 21, 2019

#33

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roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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Not a brawler, (an anti brawler? ) but exchanging with Salvador Sanchez was not wise. Legendary counter ability and adamantium chin. Loved come forward fighters.

roughdiamond, Sep 21, 2019

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young griffo Boxing Addict Full Member

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roughdiamond said: ↑

Not a brawler, (an anti brawler? ) but exchanging with Salvador Sanchez was not wise. Legendary counter ability and adamantium chin. Loved come forward fighters.
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The two beatings he put on Danny Lopez are perfect examples of this.

Great call

young griffo, Sep 21, 2019

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he grant Historian/Film Maker

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McGrain said: ↑

This is interesting to me, these are fighters that couldn't be beaten by brawling. They got be out-boxed, out-moved, out-thought, there were ways to beat them but you couldn't out-and-out outfight them. They're also some of my favourite fighters.

What's fascinating to me is how different they are. There are similarities - and a granite chin is among them so I won't be mentioning chin from hereon in - but it's the differences that make them really really interesting. Here are some of them, maybe you'll add a couple or tell me why i'm wrong.

Kid Gavilan

KG, the keed, was actually out-brawled, but only late in his career by the likes of Ramon Fuentes. When the two met when KG held the title, the champion out-brawled him at a canter to take a ten round decision.

Most instructive on film is his first fight with John Bratton. Bratton tried a hybrid style, giving ground, brawling, giving ground, brawling, trying to pick his spots. Gavilan split his jaw and dominated him savagely for fifteen rounds for his trouble (the third fight seems to have been an even worse beating).

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Check out two minutes for an instructive spell. Bratton goes all in on a brawled exchange and is consistently out-hit. The last despairing left hook he throws over the top before getting beaten back is really sorrowful and it made me sad to see it - KG then just tees off on him with right hands as he's going back, bludgeoning him to the ropes. In colour this fight would be stopped during the follow-up barrage KG lands on him. This is just the first round

In the second, Bratton spoils (forgivably) but in the third he's back on the front foot and mixing lead-rights in with a body attack. KG stays low, invites him in and tries to counter. Very patient. It's amazing how much he makes Bratton miss while letting him run this round. Brawls break out at 4:50, 5:50 and KG puts the frighters up Bratton in both - then he goes to his boxing and runs some rounds together.

But Gavilan just waits. Bratton's reputation was for a fighter who boxed and then made quick war in the final few seconds of the round. Gavilan, I think, plotted to win all of those exchanges and he did so on the evidence of the truncated film we have here. It's masterful execution that rather reminds of the undoing of an honourable mention, more of which later.

And that's the key to the Keed's anti-brawling style. Patience. He waits and waits for the right moments to out-brawl the opponent. His excellent defensive skills keep him out of trouble in the meantime against all but the likes of Robinson and his absolutely elite stamina - Keed is in the top 0.001% here - means he can deliver on his trap for the fullness of fifteen rounds if required. His dearth of power meant it was often required. He's the best advertisement for an anti-brawler who can't hit.

**** Tiger

Tiger is a bit of an anomaly power-wise. Terry Dowens described being hit by him like being hit by a bag of coal, but he didn't score that many knockouts. I think the problem was that people just knew they didn't belong in the pocket with him so they didn't allow themselves to get hit that much. Tiger's weakenss was boxers but he turned a lot of very rugged men into sub-standard boxers who didn't have a hope in hell of beating him because they didn't want to fight him.

His record against brawlers was absolutely outstanding. Florentino Fernandez the huge Cuban puncher tried it on against Tiger in 1962 and Jesus Christ did he get a shellacking.

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Tiger went right for him and I think got hurt to the body in their very first exchange. Sometimes Tiger showed a slight inability to adapt, and perhaps his greates weakness was he felt that if a fighter was "running away" from him, that fighter was losing. He complained endlessly after losing such a contest that there wouldn't have been a fight if it weren't for him and therefore how could he have lost it? A minor swarming adaption could have brought him even greater success. But in brawls he consistently read the messages brilliantly. Look at Tiger's guard for the rest of this fight - elbows tucked in, slightly low, over his front foot, coming in behind a punch, taking it close. It's a perfect designation for avoiding punishment to the body. (Dumphy's observation that Tiger has his "gloves up high" in commentary is not accurate - rather he has his chin down very low). Tiger crowds his man and it comes at the expense of getting hit with combos when he gets caught on his heels, but he leads with punches of phenomenal commitment; a great defence when undisturbed is married to surety in his ability to hold a punch when he is found while attacking.

Tiger used solid boxing ability to force the brawlers hand and then consistently out-fought him. But key to his unbrawlability (now a word), is his phenomenal strength. Tiger looks like a modern-day steroid freak in his musculature but this was not for show, nor was it a numbing draw on his limitless stamina. His functional strength was off the charts; he once threw the strong Gene Fullmer straight to the canvas during a test of strength. Brawling Tiger was like fighting iron. While The Keed used his smarts, Tiger relied upon his enormous strength and durability to make himself the brawler's bane.

Of course, Tiger was famously out-brawled - but dragging his 5'8 frame up to light-heavyweight to take on perhaps the deadliest puncher in the history of that division isn't relevant here. All these fighters could be out-brawled if we look at this example - Gavilan could be out-brawled by Hagler, and so on. Brawling outside your weight division is asking for trouble.

1970s/60s Bantamweights and some Honourable Mentions

I want to stop here and take a note of the elite bantamweight brawlers of the Olivares era. These men were not brawlers remember, none of these guys are, these are the anti-brawlers, the guys it is impossible to brawl and win, but there were a horrible vipers nest of them in and around this era. Olivares was eventually out-brawled by Herrara; Hererra in turn was out-brawled by Olivares; Harrera and the perhaps the greatest contender in bantamweight history Chucho Castillo swapped fights where one out-braweld the other for spells; Olivares out-brawled Castillo - in amongst this madness were elite brawlers like Pimentel and Borkhorser, it was ****ing crazy. This is worth mentioning for two reasons - one, any one of these guys deserves an anti-brawling passage of their own and their rivalries are instructive of a fact: specifically that there is no such thing as a fighter that is immune to brawlers which kind of defeats the purpose of the thread, but i'm pitching something near-as here. Anyone can land a perfect punch.

Which leads me to the definitive HM, Manny Pacquiao. Wtf are you doing trying to outbrawl Manny you ****ing nut? Well, Marquez was trying to finally get the nod. IMO he won II and III with skills but in the end he chucked in the towel and instead roided up and decided to knock his man out. And it worked and it was very very beautiful. He drew Manny into brawls, changed the angle, dipped and punched, something he'd been doing throughout their rivalry but upon which he never relied as definitive strategy. Here, he did, changing Manny from the ultimate anti-brawler to the ultimate KO victim in a high-level brawl. Tough break.

The same can be said for Roberto Duran. Watching him reduce the brawling Barkley to a victim (it was close but come on) is one of the most special things i've ever seen in boxing. His left-handed strategy to keep Hagler off him was also a thing of incredible beauty. Unfortunately he ran into Tommy Hearns and got outbrawled onto his face, like Manny. Tougher break.

Finally, I want to mention Vitali Klitschko. He's promlematic because he was only involved in one out and out brawl and he lost it But it was on a cut. He has all the attributes required to be outbrawlable and I'm not sure I would bet on anyone other than Lennox to pull it off, and perhaps not twice. Tough luck Vitali.

I was gonna do Sandy Saddler/Henry Armstrong as a comparison but 10,000 characters is my lot
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Very good points on Tiger .. he may have been the strongest middleweight of all time .. look at how he handled Fullmer who was a brute himself .. Tiger was limited as a fighter and could be outboxed but muscle to muscle he was a monster .. his fight with Carter was sensational. Tiger took the shots and beat Rubin up. He was not the fastest guy nor the best but in certain match ups he was insane to go against.

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he grant, Sep 21, 2019

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roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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Yuh was also pretty hard to exchange with. Well schooled.

roughdiamond, Sep 24, 2019

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Flo_Raiden Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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Great mentions. Trinidad is another guy that couldn't be beat in a brawl. You have to outsmart and outbox him to beat him. Exchanging with Tito is just asking to get knocked out.

Flo_Raiden, Sep 24, 2019

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George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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Tommy Hearns? He was an anti brawler imo, based on this.

Anyone who came to fight Tommy Hearns with the idea of brawling is getting KTFOd. Someone coming forward into Hearns jab is getting peppered with that jab and lined up for collosal right hands. And anyone short of MW being walked on to those rights hands all night is going to go down.

His biggest weakness is obviously his lack of an ATG mandible, so he can be beaten by an accurate brawler which can take his punch, somebody like Mickey Walker. He'd have to fight more defensively to beat them and start to get more aggressive as the fight progressed.
I'm also fully aware that that isn't brawling, but that's why he's an anti brawler. He doesn't brawl, he eats up the guys who do. There isn't a guy who I'd class as a brawler who I'd make favourite, Gavalin and Walker have the best chance imo, possibly Barbados Joe as well but we don't have anything to go on there.

George Crowcroft, Oct 22, 2019

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Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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Great thread. Well done, Lads

Clinton, Oct 22, 2019

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George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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George Crowcroft said: ↑

Tommy Hearns? He was an anti brawler imo, based on this.

Anyone who came to fight Tommy Hearns with the idea of brawling is getting KTFOd. Someone coming forward into Hearns jab is getting peppered with that jab and lined up for collosal right hands. And anyone short of MW being walked on to those rights hands all night is going to go down.

His biggest weakness is obviously his lack of an ATG mandible, so he can be beaten by an accurate brawler which can take his punch, somebody like Mickey Walker. He'd have to fight more defensively to beat them and start to get more aggressive as the fight progressed.
I'm also fully aware that that isn't brawling, but that's why he's an anti brawler. He doesn't brawl, he eats up the guys who do. There isn't a guy who I'd class as a brawler who I'd make favourite, Gavalin and Walker have the best chance imo, possibly Barbados Joe as well but we don't have anything to go on there.
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Just thinking about this, Brawling with Tommy Hearns was probably the easiest way to beat him.

So I don't know if that makes this post incorrect or irrelevant but he was still a nightmare to exchange with.

George Crowcroft, Oct 23, 2019

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Oddone Bermane Stiverne's life coach. Full Member

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Hagler tops the list in my opinion however my mind keeps thinking back to Golata. Specifically of Golata Bowe 1. Thoughts?

Oddone, Oct 24, 2019

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red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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Tiger was the first who came to mind.

red cobra, Oct 24, 2019

#43
Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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George Crowcroft said: ↑

Tommy Hearns? He was an anti brawler imo, based on this.

Anyone who came to fight Tommy Hearns with the idea of brawling is getting KTFOd. Someone coming forward into Hearns jab is getting peppered with that jab and lined up for collosal right hands. And anyone short of MW being walked on to those rights hands all night is going to go down.

His biggest weakness is obviously his lack of an ATG mandible, so he can be beaten by an accurate brawler which can take his punch, somebody like Mickey Walker. He'd have to fight more defensively to beat them and start to get more aggressive as the fight progressed.
I'm also fully aware that that isn't brawling, but that's why he's an anti brawler. He doesn't brawl, he eats up the guys who do. There isn't a guy who I'd class as a brawler who I'd make favourite, Gavalin and Walker have the best chance imo, possibly Barbados Joe as well but we don't have anything to go on there.
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I guess you missed the first Barkely fight.

Saad54, Oct 24, 2019

#44
George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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Saad54 said: ↑

I guess you missed the first Barkely fight.
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Was that at WW?

George Crowcroft, Oct 24, 2019

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