Ike Williams vs. Billy Graham

Billy Graham would win, but only because he has the advantage of being the natural welterweight.

 

Hard one to call, for though Graham is a pretty good defensive boxer - who Williams traditionally struggled with - he does most of his good work in close to the body, meaning he will be giving Williams opportunities to tee off, especially if he stays there within range for long durations of the fight.

Ultimately I'll have to go with Billy's ability to take a good shot and think he'll be able to effectively work Williams over whilst enduring some rough spots along the way. 9-6 ish.

 

Graham was a good boxer but he wasn't slick - he didn't rely on slippery skills to stay out of trouble or feints to fool his opponents; he was a rugged fighter with an impossible durability who had good skills to back it up.

So against the best Williams, who was probably a more skilled fighter than we give him credit for, Graham isn't going to win on points. Because I've seen Williams in there with Enrique Bolanos (second fight), who was, though not quite on Graham's level, the George Araujo of his day, meaning a solid contender with plenty of bounce in legs and a wide variety of techniques. A dedicated LaStarza type who boxed at range and let Williams do the attacking.

To land anything, Williams had to be more Joe Frazier than Joe Louis, crouching, bobbing, stalking but still using Louis' jab. He pumped away, slipped shots and countered effectively and won a very comfortable decision. Graham was much stronger than Bolanos and would more than likely stand his ground but Williams' method in this fight displayed his defence, solidarity and patience.

Graham's own style was more in the mould of Barney Ross'. He didn't really dance and stood defiantly boxing from afar but mixing it up when necessary. Cautious, but knowingingly smug that he could take absolutely anything anyone threw at him. Although not known as a puncher, Graham could hit too; he must have been able to throw a glove with some kind of a force because he hurt Gavilan on at least a couple of occasions throughout their series, and we all know Gavilan is definitely more durable than Ike.

But I doubt Williams would be stopped, and especially not if he was taking the front foot. Graham just wouldn't be able to set himself to throw knockout blows.

I could actually see this fight being more one-sided than most would expect, not being a total shut out but reasonably as Williams' for the taking. Ten, eleven rounds in his favour? We have to remember that he was capable of beating and even destroying good welterweights; I saw him swarm Johnny Bratton in a rage and break his jaw. Williams didn't let up even against the bigger fighters. Not just a mere lightweight.

My biggest fear for Graham is his low guard, over which Williams could land either lefts or rights. The deciding difference between Graham and Gavilan was the speed; Gavilan was generally beating Graham to the punch and that's why he won the series. If it's not a powerful onslaught that scores Williams points, it'll be his straight jab down the middle.

Possible flashes of what really would happen can be seen in a handful of moments in the Gavilan-Graham fights, where Gavilan came forward just as Williams did against Bolanos, stalking with a high guard and landing quick shots. Williams, though naturally smaller, wasn't all that far from the physical build of Gavilan, being just one inch shorter, a couple of pounds lighter at welterweight and just as quick and probably as strong. I would say there is a fair chance Williams could emulate Gavilan's strategy from these momentary snippets but carry it out for the full fifteen (I know you said twelve, but I like the real distance to be fifteen) rounds for a clear decision win.

There's also a good chance I'm wrong of course, but all I will suggest is that this fight not simply be 'a good bigg'un beating a good little'un' - because Williams did beat good welterweights, and he was most likely better than Graham in their respective divisions. One's good, one's great.

 

I thought Graham showed good slipping and parrying skills in the latter rounds of his third bout with Gavilan, very smooth, with good countering ability inside. I'd have considered him a pretty slick, skilled boxer.

Edit: Upon re-watching late bits of the fight again, I pretty much agree with Manassa.

 

Carmen Basilio slips punches and even jabs well on occasions, but we don't categorise him as a slick fighter. On the grand scale of things, Graham was a seven out of ten for slipperiness, and, his footwork being what it was (not slow but not amazingly fast either), he's going to be there to hit against a sharpshooter like Williams.

 

Nice breakdown.

I disagree with a few of the points you make.

One thing I disagree with is that Ike Williams is just as quick as Kid Gavilan. Maybe he is when it comes to single punches, but Gavilan flurries markedly quicker than what Williams does, and really, Gavilan was pinching heaps of the early rounds against Graham with pretty much nothing more than that in their third fight. Once Graham acclamitised to the speed, or rather when Gavilan slowed up a touch, Graham started to gain ascendancy.

I also think you are giving Graham's slipperiness short thrift. He got hit very few times clean by Gavilan and it was owing to his ability to slip punches with subtle shifts of the body and head and his parrying and blocking of punches was also at the fore in blunting Gavilan's attack. I'd give him an 8 out of 10 for slipperiness. He ain't up there with the Locches, Peps and Benitezes or even the Mayweathers, Toneys and Cantos, but he is not too far removed.

I also find it hard to envisage Williams winning by the score you suggest likely (5 to 7 points). Graham in all his career dropped only two lopsided decisions, to Gavilan once and to Tippy Larkin - fighters quite different to Williams. Given that Williams did struggle with quite a few boxers (e.g. Joyce, Montgomery, Dawson, Mouzon) and that Graham could box well using a mixture of subtle movement and guile, I think it's highly unlikely that we see such a decisive winner.

 

Ah, the dreaded counter argument

I will have to reply to this tomorrow when my PC is less moody. Bump it if I forget.

 

Please do.

BTW it's good to see you put in a lengthy reply.

 

Don't want to intervene in the discussion between the two of you-just wanted to point out Gavilan's flurries may appear faster/quicker exactly due to that: flurrying. Williams' arsenal will be heavier, & Graham's reaction to them will be different than when he confronted The Keed.

With the limited footage available of Ike Williams, his hand speed is actually surprising: they were FAST, & when the opportunity presented itself, he could turn "on" & be quite savage (ex. Jack, Gatica). But he also seemed very patient in the ring.

 

Great description, by the way, of Billy Graham, Manassa. I think Graham would have been too clever for Williams, and when you factor in Billy's unbelievably great chin whiskers, after all, NEVER being floored in his entire career, that would even take away the puncher's chance that Ike would have over just about anyone else.

 

I'd say you are right .plus Graham had a top chin,one great old school trainer ,can't remember who ,said of Graham," he was as good as you can get ,without being great".Graham would be good enough to take a dec ,in a fight of ebbs and flows ,imo.

 

I'd say Gavilan was faster, but not by very much at all, and as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, Williams' punches carried more weight. Graham got braver as his fights with Gavilan wore on, knowing he could afford to take a few shots, and he fared better because he started landing his own stuff. Against Williams, a much more forceful puncher, he'd be more wary.

Also, I'd expect Williams to be the bull and Graham the matador (generally; it wouldn't be Armstrong-Ross by any means), so it wouldn't be Graham's choice to be more aggressive or not, he'd be on the back foot.

I disagree, Gavilan landed plenty. Graham slipped a fair few but then he copped some as well, and I would dare to say Williams was a bit more accurate if less voluble with his punches than Gavilan.

Exactly, they were different to Williams. I think Williams has a pretty good style to beat Graham, very good infact. He'd be well equipped inside there despite being the smaller man. Anyone even more relentless, like Henry Armstrong, would probably be tied up by Graham and rendered ineffective for large portions of the fight, but Williams has the patience and sharpness.

I'd say those fighters you listed were quicker and in some cases trickier than Graham. As a counter, I can show you the first Bolanos rematch where a matured Williams fights a perfect points win and looks like 'more Joe Louis plus, and then some.'

 

Graham looked pretty brave from the opening bell, I don't think he lacked confidence in going to Gavilan because of Gavilan's power. He just new that if he opened up, he'd have been whacked by the quicker fighter.

I don't doubt that he'd be cautious the whole way through when fighting Williams though.

He took the full brunt of Gavilan's punches rarely imo, but agree to disagree.

To me it comes down to whether Graham can take what Williams has to offer. If he can without being intimidated and taken out of his game, I think he can outbox Williams and take a close decision.

I haven't seen any Joyce, Montgomery, Dawson or Mouzon on film so I can't assess whether they are trickier or quicker than Graham. I know they were cagey boxer types and that's about all really.

I have seen a good 20 minutes of his fight with Enrique Bolanos though. Bolanos looked a very good boxer, but he lacked the strength to go with Ike and got pushed back far too easily. Something I don't think will happen with Graham.