Harry Wills In Place of Jersey Joe?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, Oct 11, 2019.



  1. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Wills gets stalked and slowly taken down by Louis, twice. He's KOed by 2 beautiful combos.
    Louis TKO11, KO5

    Charles shuts him out, takes him to school and stops him at least once.
    Charles UD15, TKO9, TKO9, UD15

    Marciano? Well...
    Wills is pounded from all angles relentlessly with punches that don't exist yet have close to full power possible and is beaten black and blue until he's left looking like a mutilated corpse on the ropes. Twice
    Marciano KO10, KO2

    Tbh the most thought provoking thing about this thread for me is what happens with Charles if he isn't caught with Wallcott's God shot.
     
  2. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    Unless he loses to someone else along the way, then it would be Charles the champion that Marciano Challengers.
    In that scenario, Ezzard puts up the fight of his life and loses by a whisker.
     
  3. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Wills against Firpo was 32 and fighting regularly,he was 35 when he tamely went down to Uzcudun ,and he had been fighting regularly. 9 months previously he had fought Sharkey.
    So Wills was 32 for Firpo ,34 for Sharkey ,and 35 for Uzcudun
    Wills was a fitness fanatic, never drank, never smoked,went on long hikes and fasts.
    By contrast Dempsey was 37 years old had not fought in four and a half years , and lived the high life . Unfair comparison I think you will agree.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
  4. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    How dominant you are depends on your opposition doesnt it.Walcott had a guy equally as good as him in Charles.
     
  5. Jackomano

    Jackomano Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This. Wills in his heyday would have a good chance against Joe Louis, Charles, or Marciano, but by the time of the Gunboat Smith fight Wills was pretty much used up as a fighter as was Smith. Also, Boxrec has a lot of fights missing on Wills, since he had well over 100 fights in his career.
     
  6. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Wills' age is reported differently on different documents, it doesn't seem it's really known.

    I'd agree, I just thought that comment was unfair on Wills.
     
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  7. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    Kinda like a Willie Meehan or Jim Flynn ?
     
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  8. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Arcel never commented on those two as far as I am aware. However Arcel was based in New York and Wills fought quite a few bouts in the NY/NY area during the 20’s. Arcels comment as an expert and more likely than not an eye witness should be given a strong level of weight.
     
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  9. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I agree with this, completely.

    But a quick question, did he see Wills in just the 20s or the 10s as well. He was very inactive post 22, that probably wasn't Wills at his best.
     
  10. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    Damon Runyon did as well and he said Wills was the best heavyweight in the world during Willard's reign and was terribly ducked. I like Ray but he romanticized Benny Leonard and Jack Dempsey, his youth ...

    I get that there is always a debate over Dempsey and Wills as to who would have won but when guys take the low road and try to dismiss Wills instead of be honest and say he was the top contender for Jack's whole reign, Jack's team refused to let them fight, Jack went with it and that Harry fought and beat better fighters than Dempsey ever did then I don't take their opinions seriously. They don't deserve to be ..

    Here's the facts on Dempsey and I love his saga as much as anyone ... none of us know how good he could have been because he had a short, manufactured run from 1918 to Willard and essentially stopped being an active fighter .. post Willard he was rocked in round 2 by Carpentier, a light heavyweight, he was in a life and death with Bill Brennan, a tough guy but on no one's all time top heavyweight 100 list, almost iced by Firpo, diced by Tunney, fought life and death vs Sharkey and then the long count .. he had only a few fights in seven years, had massive inactivity and did not fight the two toughest contenders in Greb and Wills .. at the same time he had the greatest publicity team in history with Rickard and Kearns at his back as well as exceptional press coverage .. in reality the best he can get from me as a fighter is an incomplete because he never came close to maximizing his exceptional natural talents .. based on the fights we see I don't understand how anyone can say Dempsey was that great. Without question a tough guy but who did he beat that say a Jerry Quarry wouldn't have ?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
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  11. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You are taking a hopelessly negative view concerning Dempsey. A view NOT supported by history by the way. Dempsey was and in many cases still is considered one of the greatest fighters who ever lived. This is absolutely indisputable.

    The 1920’s were a time where celebrities were given much press but just because they were highly publicized does not mean they were not phenomenally great at what they did. The three top figures from that time were who? I will tell you:

    Jack Dempsey
    Babe Ruth
    Harry Houdini

    Here we are say 100 years later and what do we find:

    Babe Ruth still considered one of baseballs greatest players if not the best.

    Houdini is still considered histories greatest magician.

    Dempsey by those who really understand what they are looking at and who have closely looked at history is still considered one of boxing’s best.

    Regarding Wills the history is VERY clear and nothing has changed over the last 100 years that changes that history. The color line was an AMERICAN cultural tradition not a Jack Dempsey tradition. The culture surrounding Dempsey did not want a black man to fight for the hwt championship. Period. People such as you should be giving Dempsey a huge level of credit trying to arrange the fight by searching for a promoter. But to no avail. It did not matter who was hwt champion. No black man was getting a title shot for the hwt crown. Regarding Greb no one with any credibility believes a 160 pound middleweight would stand any chance vs Dempsey who was one of boxings greatest hitters. Any single power punch from Dempsey would end the fight. More than likely the bout never came off in part because the boxing public understood this to be the case. No hwt is afraid to fight any middleweight and you do yourself no favors by intimating this as a fact.

    Here is what the greatest p4p fighter who ever lived said of Dempsey:

    Sam Langford:
    Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen.

    If this was the only statement of Dempsey’s greatness it alone speaks for itself but add to it Arcel whom was boxing’s greatest trainer.
    Add to it boxing’s greatest writer Nat Fleischer who rated Dempsey over such greats as Louis, Marciano and Corbett. Add to this Jack Sharkey who stated Dempsey hit harder that Joe Louis and added:

    “When Dempsey hit you to the body it felt as if his fist was coming out your back”

    Lou Stillman also rated Dempsey the greatest of all heavyweights as well as a host of others.

    BTW Benny Leonard is still considered top 2-3 greatest light weights ever so Arcel was not far from the truth concerning this fighters capabilities.

    I strongly suggest your viewpoint is highly skewed and not in tune with history.
     
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  12. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Do you have any opinions of your own?
     
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  13. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    The only thing indisputable is how flawed and amateurish your post is. Belligerence is no substitute for knowledge. Perhaps you can specifically tell us what performance are you basing his all time greatness on instead of misquoting diluted, dicey statements and making apple to pear analogies.
     
  14. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    My opinions go hand in hand with boxing history which unlike you I’ve studied extensively. History speaks to only those that listen. Suggest you start listening.
     
  15. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Sorry, you can’t argue with the history. Only you and people like you make up what they would like history to be. I don’t buy such bull****. That’s the difference.