Good points Entaowed all fair. I do suggest you watch Ali Folley again, it's actually a decent scrap to watch. It does seem that Ali whenever he wanted to sit down on his punches and throw a right with authority, could hurt and or take out Folley, but the fight is not a mis match skill wise. Some excellent back and forth in round one as well as after Ali scores the first kd, gloats over Folley in one of his most iconic poses, Folley gets up and puts up a very spirited fight. While I do believe Charles would be a formidable opponent for Ali, prime vs prime I am not picking him to win. Quite simply Ali came around at the perfect time for a man of his gifts. He was too big and strong for many pre sonny heavies and far too fast for the the early models of the truly modern sized heavy(Liston, Williams, Terrell, I don't include Foreman because Ali defeated him with a unique Strategy, and being the far better conditioned athlete, that totally got inside George's head). He was perfect blend of size and speed for his era. Add in an indomitable will and you an ATG maybe the ATG. The Charles matchup is the original thread, I only segwayed into The Louis match up because I did not like the quality of reasoning in the article you provided for picking Ali over Louis in a hypothetical match up. In such a match up I choose Louis. I think excellent cases can be made for both men coming out on top in such a match up. I like Louis however, because he is a composite of many fighters that could fluster Ali only a far superior version. I see parts of Louis in Cooper, Folley, Norton. Only he is more durable than all three, faster than all three and punches so much harder than all three. On the other hand Ali could move which would trouble Joe, but he didn't fight like Walcott, and wasn't as technically sound as Conn who again was a much smaller target. A will o the wisp in their first encounter. Ali could be hit if you had the reflexes, speed and timing to do so, and Joe did. Could Louis hit Ali with the hook Cooper did? Could he catch Ali with the straight right that Folley does in opening round? (Never mind the fat Ali that Young caught repeatedly) Could Louis jab with Ali like Norton did? I think the answer to all three is yes.
Yes Ali would still win because he was faster of foot,faster of hand, tougher and hit harder. Charles would just be slower if he were bigger. P4P ? Charles, because he did so well at different weights . Ali did not have that luxury, neither do other heavyweights that's why they don't feature on p4p lists. Charles is not a great heavyweight, Ali is . Besides Ali I would pick: Liston Foreman Holmes Holyfield Louis Lewis Wlad Frazier Tyson Johnson Dempsey Bowe Vitali Norton Dokes Langford Tunney To beat Charles: That's along with Layne ,Valdes,Walcott,Marciano,Johnson,Ray, who already did. Thomas, Tubbs,Tucker ,Lyle,Witherspoon,Coetzee,Page ,Patterson, McVey,Jeannette ,Wills,Sharkey,Gibbons,Jeffries,Schmeling. would all give him a very hard nights work too.imo
Great post. I think an Ali-Louis fight is the most interesting of all fantasy match ups. I fluctuate between outcomes in the fight because both Ali and Louis had such talent. I agree with you on the ability of Louis to land punches on Ali but I can see Ali's counter right troubling Joe, too. Would you say Ali and Louis are the 2 standout heavyweights in history?
Louis NEEDS to get close to Clay / Ali, before he can show his so called " lightning " handspeed. The other fella can show his from the outside. Big difference. Clay picks him apart from distance for about 10 rounds, then moves in for the finish around the 12th.
Possibly. That's only one scenario, though. Another is Louis at least matching Ali's jab and countering him all night. You just don't know with two great fighters, you can only pontificate.
Bang on the money there. The people who say Louis would eventually catch up to Ali seem to forget the punishment Joe would be shipping from the outside, especially those right hands and he is getting busted up the whole time he is trying to get in a position to let his bombs go.
Foxy and Black Cloud bring up a point that I've always felt would give Ali the edge over his predecessors, that he could land his punches from a distance due to his height and reach advantages as well as his hand and foot speed. Someone like Charles would have to get in close to land but that would be difficult. A prime Ali would be on his toes all night, all the while sending in his shots with regularity and speed. Charles never met the type of opponent that Ali was...Nobody had prior to Ali"s emrgence for that matter. As for Louis vs Ali.....I lean toward Ali due to the reasons listed above. But Ali would have to be very careful. Burt mentioned the Baer bout and the triple left hooks that Louis fired at Baer as evidence of Louis' hand speed and power and he was correct. But baer was a stationary target not even in the same time zone as Ali when it came to hand and foot speed. If Ali gets careless with Louis then he's in big trouble but I don't think he would. Only a fool would knowing the dynamite Joe possesed and Ali was no fool. At any rate as far as Ali vs Charles goes Ali takes it.
Firstly lets get one thing perfectly clear. I have no time for Joe Louis freaks like Muck Fay, but to offer an alternative to Joe Louis beating any and every Heavyweight who ever has, or who ever will live / lived does NOT a Louis hater make. I just think it is quite naive to think that slow of foot Joe could match the jab of the perpetual motion Ali who could be 5 or 6 feet away from an opponent, then suddenly dance in, flick a single, or double jab, and move out again before they even knew what had happened. I also firmly believe that there is absolutely NO chance of Joe Louis EVER landing his vaunted combinations on the quicksilver Clay / Ali, though I am perfectly willing to accept that he could catch him with a single shot, and drop him just like Cooper did. Unfortunately for Joe, that would be the point at which Ali would turn nasty and open up on Louis with the same venom that he opened up on Cooper, and others, and basically tear him a new *******, forcing a stoppage within 2 minutes. Just remind yourselves again. Exactly HOW MANY times did he predict a round in which he would end a fight, and managed to do it? In other words if Joe knows and accepts his place in life Ali is happy to carry him to a points win, but if he gets ideas above his station??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Ali would just out speed Charles darting in and out and side to side and landing combinations along the way. Anyone that underestimates Louis is making a huge mistake. Prime Louis had the skills to beat anyone. He understood all the defensive and offensive aspects of the sport. He could side step and neatly box and counterpunch (Baer, Galento), he could bob and weave and come over the top with KO blows (Ramage) or he could be a seek and destroy monster (Schmeling 2, B Baer 2, Lewis). Joe can slip, block, parry and counter to both head and body with complete ease. Add to all this his fists were trip hammer quick. I do pick Ali at his best to beat Louis at his best but it would be one heck of a fight.
Muhammad wins clearly by points. But Ezzard puts up such a gallant effort he gets a rematch. In this one, Charles is actually doing better and connecting well, but a flurry of hard shots from Ali puts Charles down face first in the 9 th. A brave Charles attempt s to rise but his legs have gone. Ali Wpts 15 Ali wko 9
This, although I favour Ali by a wide decision. If was to put a number on it I'd say it's close to a 12-3 type deal
