Liston #1 heavyweight head to head?

Whenever Floyd was in a position to face a real contender he fought them. Jackson was #1. The Pete radmacher fight was an extra bout taken weeks within the Jackson fight without breaking camp. Foley And Machen at #1 and #2 fought an elimination which was a draw so while a rematch could take place Floyd fought #3 Harris as a decent replacement. Nobody wanted to see a machen Foley rematch so Machen took a fight with Ingo and was knocked out in one round making Ingo #1 contender. Floyd signed to fight Ingo but took Brian London as warm up weeks ahead of facing #1 Ingo without breaking camp. London was rated #4. Sonny Liston was never ahead of Ingo. And then because of the rematch clauses between Floyd and Ingo. Nobody else got a look in. Not just Sonny. Certainly Liston cleaned up with wins over Harris Machen and Foley but he has to wait on a rubber match that was more important to challenge. And then Floyd fought him. Sonny was never ducked.

Liston had an excellent Jab but to beat Tyson with it he would need to prevent Mike countering along the blind side of that jab with something cleverer than I have seen film of him doing on film.

yes. Evander worked that out. He anticipated the side attack’s. we don’t know Liston would.

but to be certain of any of this Liston needs to have beaten guys close to the ability of Marciano Dempsey and Frazier. In no way does Foley Machen or Harris cut this.

Liston has a great arsenal of well delivered blows that served him well against a smaller sized division of good fighters. There is no examples where he fights guys that good.

Sonny got hit a lot.

I think Marciano and Louis and Dempsey can be included here.

 

So if Liston was an top ATG H2H fighter (which he needs to be beating Lewis and Holmes), where did he prove beeing such a fighter? He fought Clay 7 months after Patterson 2. He was not that far away from his prime.

And he really was not competitive in there. A top ten H2H HW should give young Ali everything he could handle. Liston certainly did not, even in rounds 5, without Clay throwing any punches, he´d missed half his shots.

https://boxrec.com/media/images//b/be/1964-02-25_-_Sonny_Liston_-_Muhammad_Ali_(Compubox).jpg

 

When did Holmes beat an ATG prime heavyweight? When did he beat someone as good as Liston? Simply put he didn't. How do we know he could beat someone on the level of Liston? One could even go so far as to question what better heavyweights Holmes beat comparative to Floyd Patterson? Patterson was a very very decent fighter.

I don't think Lewis beat anyone on Liston's level either.

It's commonly accepted Liston took Clay for granted and was in poor shape. He thought Clay would be an easy night. Only once before had he came in that heavy - years prior against an easy beat. Fighting less than 6 rounds (about 13 minutes all told) in the 3 1/2 years leading up to Clay would not have exactly helped his timing coming in against one of the fastest heavyweights in history either. Less than 2 rounds a year.

Clay's style was also about the toughest you could put Liston up against.

I strongly believe the second fight was a fix.

Clay would have beaten plenty of big name heavyweights at this point particularly if they came in unprepared and having barely any boxing under their belt in the previous 3 1/2 years.

 

Only loses to Ali and Holmes IMO. Dempsey would be very interesting.

 

Giving up the worlds hwt championship, the greatest prize in all of sport, sitting on your stool is a huge deal that knocks Liston down multiple pegs historically. You cannot list him with those that would fight to their last breath rather than give up that most prestigious title.

 

When was Harris number 3?

 

H2 H. I list Liston in the top 5 without any hesitation

 

Liston was not competitive with Ali in their 1st fight ? Here are the scorecards.

time: 3:00 | referee: Barney Felix 57-57 | Gus Jacobson 56-58 | Bunny Lovett 58-56

 

So very telling that you left out Patterson - can't even bring yourself to even acknowledge these wins?

 

This is a well thought out analysis,,and in my opinion very hard to debate against.

 

We really disagree, I'd have Sonny taking 9 wins at least from this bunch.

 

I'd like to have seen a 34 year old Ali against a 34 year old Liston. I make Sonny the favorite in that one

 

How about 22 year old Sonny against 22 year old Ali?

 

Don't mention the fact that CompuBox tallied more landed punches from Liston than from Ali.
His skin will boil, the poor creature.