He was knocked down by Bonevena 2x in their '66 fight in New York. Preprime his 12th pro bout. In '68 he wasn't down.
A mark of a great chin can be measured, if and when he hits the deck, he has the heart to rise and continue the fight. A good case in point is Felix Tito Trinidad, he would get decked in few of his fights, but it appeared to awaken and infuriate him, he usually got up to win, except against Bernard Hopkins, in 2001.The glass jaw to me, is when the fighter gets hit on the chin and never bothers to get up,only to suffer losses by KO. Frazier had a good chin, someone like Lewis had skill, but his chin failed him against Hassim Rahman and Oliver McCall, who did not have te power of a prime George Foreman or prime Mike Tyson.
I'm still in awe of the shots he absorbed in the 13th and 14th in the Thrilla in Manilla (every bit as much as I'm in awe of Ali for throwing shots like that, in that temperature, after absorbing what he did). Belted with lightening fast punches with plenty of weight behind them after 12 rounds of give and take war and he still kept powering forward. Just incredible! Even further past his best he took what Jumbo Cummings dished out better than Frank Bruno could. I'd rate his chin an 8 or it could be that his heart rates an 11 which bumps the chin rating up.
Frazier had a fine chin...and his recouperative(?) powers were damned good...Foremen had to keep sending him to the deck. What kills me is when the revisionista insists on downgrading Frazier's chin to glass "whilst" many of these same Ali worshipping nabobs also insist that Ali was a much more lethal a puncher than he's ever been given credit for being, along with him being indestructible, having x-ray vision and the ability to fly and pass through solid matter. These Rubes can't have it both ways, as JF took everything Ali had to dish out, and was only reluctantly followed Eddie Futch's orders to bot come out for the 15th round in the Thrilla....only because he couldn't see to avoid punishment. And who was the only one of the two to hit the deck in their entire series? Why Superman himself!!
WOW, A 9 one poster says. Top 5 of all time another says. " Chins are best tested when they are hit. Beating a power puncher who doesn't land flush does not equate to having a good chin. " On a scale of 1-10, with a backdrop of examples which I do not intend to debate Fraziers chin it's about a .... 10 - Never floored in his prime and tested by power hitters - V Klitschko, Jeffries, O McCall. 9 - It takes a good punch in the right area to put this man down - Mercer, Chavalo ( who was floored by Bonavena, and would have be counted out if the Foreman and Frazier fights, which were short fights weren't stopped ) Holyfield, Holmes, Ali. 8 - Very solid. Not likely to be lottery punched. Marciano, Liston 7 - Fought and went the distance with many punchers. Proven chin. 6 - Puncher's stoped this guy if they land. Prone to being floored, hurt, knees buckled, or stunned by non-big hitters when they land solid. That's Frazier. Frazier was floored quite a bit as an amateur ( 2 times in a hotly contested New Jersey state boxing match ) , including the Olympics, if I'm not mistaken. As a pro the only real power puncher he fought bounced him out in 2 rounds in Foreman, and it didn't take long before Frazier's body gave in from Foreman's power. A solid hitter like Bonevena nearly stopped Frazier, and Frazier admits it. A trial horse like Bruce dropped him to his knees. Ali, who really was not a power hitter stung Frazier early in their poor 2nd fight. Joe Bugner, who hardly landed much buckled Frazier's knees when he did land a good one later in their fight. Ron Stander who hit a bit harder also did the same, and he hardly landed! Ramos, to a lesser extent who also didn't and much had a moment too. The common theme, Frazier's lack of ability to take a punch, quickly showed itself and it did not take a big puncher to show or a lot of punishment received to show. One clean shot from a modest to solid level punch showed limitations, fighters with good chins simply shrug these blows off without such physical effects. Luckily for Frazier he didn't take many of them at all and had too much for his opponents. Things like this seldom happen to a guy with a good chin. Outside of Foreman, Frazier's resume of punchers fought is very thin. No Shavers, Lyle, Martin, Norton, Liston, ect.. His management IMO avoided these guys, and ducked out of the WBA Tournament, which was the rave at the time in favor f the " NY state title ", where Mathis claims he hurt Frazier. Point to ponder, Kenny Norton gets blasted for having a bad chin. It wasn't good, and he did tend to freeze vs. power punchers but riddle me this. Ali could not hurt Norton in any of the three fights! Ali hurt Frazier badly in two of the fights with him. So why is Frazier's chin better than Norton's? It isn't. IMO they are pretty close, Norton was the one who took everything from a prime Holmes who hit at least as hard as Ali. -Will tinker with this post later, Gotta run.
Three way comparisons such as posted Ali, Norton and Frazier don’t work out logically as both Ali opponents had very different styles. Norton the boxer/puncher while Frazier the puncher/swarmer. Norton much more cautious while Joe willing to take 3 to land one mentality. Fraziers main defensive issues were not closing distance quickly. Joe would slip punches beautifully but stay at distance where follow up punches would land. Fraziers slow legs were an admitted defect by Joe himself. The objective should be to slip and move inside immediately. Frazier had ATG heart and will to win, toughness. He gets a absolutely 10 here. In terms of chin again if Chavalo were to be given a 10, Frazier in comparison would need to be around a 7. Not below and perhaps no more than a 7.5.
How does being blind in one eye factor in for a small swarmer because that's how Frazier fought his whole career ? A few thoughts .. No one had a better chin than Chuvalo. He was far more proven than Jeffries and took far more shots than Vitali .. he was at least on the level of McCall who was staggered by Bruno. I'd put Mercer right there as well who only went down against Holyfield when hurt by a cracked rib and then took a knee and lost as an old man .. look at the shots Mercer took from Morrison and Lewis, two monster punchers. The amateur stuff is questionable because we can say the iron chinned Tua was flattened as a amateur , etc .. MY point is that Frazier had an excellent chin .. to fight on the level he did in the style he had with compromised vision was an exceptional accomplishment .. remember the absolute prime Foreman could not keep him on the deck, he kept getting up. Ali hit him hundreds of times and could not ut him down. Joe was a warrior and I give his chin an A- , not an a plus but a slid A - at least ..
Styles aside, we can see the punch stats. They are close enough. Ali landed on both and hurt Frazier easier. End of. If you want to argue, Norton had a better defense or was more versatile, okay, sure. But when Ali landed, he rocked and hurt Frazier easier in comparison to Norton. That point stands. Norton, unlike Frazier, fought more punchers and did so at an older age, so he gets tagged for having a glass jaw. No shame in losing early to Shavers or Cooney when you 35 r older and past your best. Frazier would also lose via KO if he fought these two past his prime. But when using common opponents, like Ali, his chin seems more or less even to Frazier's. A bit of a boxing double standard. Frazier didn't fight the puncher's aside from Foreman, Norton fought more of them. A key point, Frazier called it quits at age 32. How would he look at age 35 or 27 vs. puncher's? Not so good. While its true Frazier did have one come back to fight at age 37, he was lucky to draw and called it quits after that. If Frazier had as many fights as Norton, he'd probably have equal to or more KO losses. Norton also did better vs. Stander and Quarry, two more common opponents, but that's a separate thread. I agree Frazier had a rare heart. But his chin, not nearly as good. And I disagree, he did not have slow foot speed. Never heard Frazier say I had slow legs.
Joe certainly did state he had slow legs. Specifically “My legs are slow but my hands...WATCH OUT”. You just need to watch him fight. He stood too long slipping and ducking and moved way to slow to close distance. You cannot compare fighters of such divergent styles and come to a conclusion concerning the ability to take a punch. Norton was much more a boxer many times boxing at distance whereas Frazier the puncher more apt to run into blows. Nortons deficit concerning his ability to recover from hard blows was well known back in the 70’s. This reputation was far more than just derived from looking at paper records as you do without living through the times. Nortons reputation came from very early on by those that worked with him in the gym then became vividly apparent in his KO losses. Fraziers toughness and much better chin again was derived from those in the game, from the gym and then in practice in the ring. Suggest not doing all you can to try to alter known and well understood boxing history. It’s akin to believing Flynn and Moran gave Jack Johnson a tough fight.
Well, I think blind is overstating it. Ferdie Pacheco embellishes on Frazier being blind in one eye a bit too much. Did Futch ever say this? Poor vision in one eye is the best way to say it, he could see the punches coming, just not in 20/20. If Frazier had monocular vision, he would be hit often as you have no depth perception. He slipped way too many punches. Chauvalo lasted how long vs. Frazier and Foreman? IMO he was saved of knockdowns and the count if those matches went on a bit longer. Pretty much a fact. These fights show his limitation vs. puncher, it does not prove at all he can last vs. them. He was dropped by Bonevna, the ref just missed it. A tough guy for sure, we saw Chualvo's limitations. Jeffries took the best from Fitz, with light gloves and no mouthguard.Some Historians who saw Fitz, Dempsey, and Louis say Fitz hit harder then they did. In a previous thread, you touted Choynski's power. He landed a vicious shot, Jeffries did not go down, not was he decreed. Same thing, going 45 rounds with Sharkey, and taking a good one from Jackson. Jeffries' chin was very proven. As I have said before, show me on film where Chuvalo or anyone for that matter took that was harder punch than the uppercut that Lennox Lewis and did not go down. You've got a good handle on history. Can you show me? Now's that's a chin, and what Vitali proved. He also took a very hard shot to the temple early by Sanders and a hard right hand without blinking by Hide in addition to some hard shots by Briggs and others...at an older age when chins decline. VK is one of two ring magazine / lineal champions never to be floored. While the amateur stuff needs to be factored in, it's all telling when guys not on Savon's power level or close to it floored Frazier. Excellent Chin for Frazier? No way and I pointed out why and in which fights when he showed effects without being hit much. An excellent chin does not have these types of moments, period. I can't change minds here, but, I can provide facts and video. The rest is up to the reader. I think people confuse the heart and chin a bit. There was no quit in Frazier. When others would have opted out by stop trying to win and play defense, or get up at " 11 ", which means most could get up before " 10 " if they wanted to. His heart was outstanding, chin not so much.
Now you're changing a tune. I think Johnson was up 8 rounds to zero over Flynn, but those at ringside felt he was clinching a lot because of it. Meanwhile, those at ringside said felt Flynn was full of stamina for the later rounds. In a 40-45 round fight that would have factored in. Quoting those who where there is not exaggerating boxing history, it's quoting it. Please do not misrepresent in an attempt to make a point that has nothing to do with the thread. Moving on from that point, Frazier had the footwork and skills to close the range and corner quicker boxers. If his legs were quick enough to do this job. Norton had way more fights, and was mostly stopped by punchers like Foreman ( Who bounded Frazier just as easily ), and Shavers and Cooney when he was past his best. Once again, when he was hit by similar opponents, Norton's chin did not look as a suspect. If Frazier fought Shavers and Cooney when he was 35 and 37, it would be widely apparent he goes down too, don't you agree? Please answer this question as it will tell me everything I need to know about this conversation. Until that time, Ali hurt and TKO's Frazier and Stander, who hardly landed much buckled Frazier's knees with one blow. Nothing close to this happened to Norton. You might bring up Norton's early KP loss to Garica. Garcia could hit, Norton wasn't in good shape and faded. But he did avenge the loss with a KO win. Out side of the early KO loss, and Foreman, Norton wet how many fight without being stopped until he ran in Shavers past his prime? Indeed. Whether Frazier who hit harder took it to Norton in the gym has nothing to due with Frazier's chin. Had they fought in the mid 70's, I'd pick Norton as Frazier was past his best, and picking jokes for title defenses, until he ran into Foreman.
