The best course for anyone wishing to know more about these guys is to buy Springs Toledo's excellent book of the same name.
i havent heard this before regarding Chase beating SRR ass in a streetfight. Would you elaborate please?
Ahem, I was mistaken in my comment, it was Aaron Wade (another black murderer's row fighter) who beat Robinson in a streetfight. My memory failed me
I went off the beaten path. I was referring to the 'murderers row' tag. My definition is one of the great black avoided fighters of that day. And there was no one more avoided than Jimmy Bivins. Case in point: wins both Interim light heavyweight and heavyweight titles during the war and do you think one of them would give him a title shot when they came home?
A part of me wonders if Ezzard Charles had spent more time in the mid 40s around 160 if he'd have fought these guys. I know he did actually fight Burley and Marshall, but imagine how good his résumé looks with wins over Holman Williams, Jack Chase and Bert Lytell on it. Also, Moore should be a member imo
Ezzard Charles probably would have some difficulty paring down to 160 pounds by the middle 1940s. As it was, Charles piled up a terrific record as a light heavyweight from 1946 to 1948 while also facing a number of heavyweights with quite a bit of success. During that period of time, he beat such light heavyweights such as Archie Moore (three times), Lloyd Marshall (two times), Oakland Billy Smith (two times) and Sam Baroudi. Also from 1946 to 1948, he beat such heavyweights as Jimmy Bivins (three times), Fitzie Fitzpatrick (two times), Elmer Ray (a rematch) and Joe Baksi. During that time, Charles lost only once, a highly disputed split-decision in his first bout with Ray, the latter having a weight advantage of nearly twenty pounds over Charles. In the rematch with Ray, Charles won by a knockout in the ninth round. - Chuck Johnston
There was no "group," officially defined. "Murderers' Row" is a term applied retroactively, to a set of black middleweights who were avoided by the champions and most of the name fighters of the 40s, who fought each other for coffee and cake money, and who -never- got a shot at a world championship. Moore and Charles could have been considered "Murderers' Row" had they never fought their way into world championships. You didn't "want" to be a part of it. It's more of condemnation than glorification, which the book MURDERERERS' ROW demonstrates.
Yes, the term of Murderers' Row was a condemnation for the most part in regards to the top black fighters who weren't getting lucrative bouts or world title shots. I put the likes of Archie Moore in the group because he had to struggle just as much as the likes of Charley Burley or Holman Williams to make a living in boxing during the first ten or fifteen years of his career. During that struggle, Moore couldn't be sure that things would finally turn around for him. As result, not putting Moore in the group is being retrospective. I would be far more reluctant to put Ezzard Charles in the group. Compared to Moore, Burley and Williams, Charles was younger and had his professional debut later, which was during 1940. During the first three years of his career, Charles went on to become a good gate attraction in Pittsburgh and Cleveland, both of which were good boxing cities during the 1940s. After being a pro boxer for three years, Charles was essentially inactive except for some inter-service bouts while serving in the U.S. Army during World War II. It wasn't until three years later that Charles resumed his pro career with a tremendous amount of success in 1946. Afterwards, Charles was getting some good paydays even if he didn't get a world title shot until 1949. - Chuck Johnston
