My point, which escaped you is that there were big heavies around,they didnt just suddenly start appearing 2 decades later! ps Lastarza was beaten by light heavy journeyman 3 fights before he got a title shot with Marciano and floored in the rematch !
A great many of the punches that opponents threw at Marciano only managed to hit air.On the other hand, if an Archie Moore punch and a Joe Wallcott punch could topple him, then a Tua punch obviously could do the same with far more serious consequences. So I also find it extremely hard to imagine Rocky being able to absorb the shots that would inevitably penetrate his defenses. Especially since Rocky always expected the opponent to cede ground and Tua would not do that. They also say that Rocky was a devastating puncher. Yet he landed clean punch after clean punch on Moore and Moore didn't go down. Look at all the shots he had to land during that last round against Moore. All of them clean, yet Moore persisted.So he was not the puncher in the class of a Tyson who could blow you away with a few punches. So to me Rocky seems to resemble a Julio Cesar Chavez who depended on accumulation of damage to get his KOs.
WBA heavyweight champion Roy Jones vs. John Ruiz Main article: John Ruiz vs. Roy Jones, Jr. On March 1, 2003, Jones officially weighed in at 193 lb (88 kg) and Ruiz at 226 lb (103 kg) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Jones_Jr. A thirty three pound difference between the two.
Ive pointed this out in a different thread. Some People acknowledge it, others dig their heels in and ignore it. Rocky obviously had power but he is overrated. On average, he took longer than his contemporaries to stop tbe exact same opponent...and said opponent was usually older and more shopworn when Rocky fought them. This indicates that the only logical conclusion is either A) Rocky was a very sloppy finisher B) he was more of an accumulation/volume puncher or C) both. You cant be a devastating 10/10 or even 9/10 puncher and take round after round after round pounding away to get a knockout or stoppage when "inferior" boxers got the job done faster. I have run the numbers and numbers don't lie. This has nothing to do with "hate" or bias, its simply an observable fact. As for the thread, Rocky only knew how to fight one way and so did Tua more or less. As you said, Rocky expects the opponent to give ground and back off which allows him to find his rhythm swarming up close. Tua isn't going anywhere and isnt too shy to fight in a phone booth either. I think it would resemble the first frazier vs bonavena fight. Rocky may have to get off the floor a few times and it would be very close if it goes all 12, but i doubt it does. The ref may end up stopping it if tua begins to unload and rocky is eating shots to land some of his own. On the other hand, tua infamously froze up when he tasted Lennox's power and became very cautious. Rocky doesn't hit in the same ballpark as Lennox but it's a small chance he makes Tua go in his shell instead of going all out.
It was even a little more as Roy’s trainers stated he was actually around 189 for the fight but weighed in with his clothes and shoes on.
Marciano could obviously hit hard but he was basically a grinder, an attrition puncher similar to Frazier, but two handed.One of the reasons Marciano took so long to dispose of fairly average opponents was he wasn't very accurate,he just kept throwing until he had worn down his opponent to the stage where he was pretty much stationary and then got the stoppage.His excellent conditioning meant he could maintain an incessant barrage of hard shots for an entire fight,if he hadn't trained like a maniac,[and obviously he was facing older guys in his most important fights,]he would not have been so successful imo.
Weighing in with shoes that might be loaded with lead and a whole bunch of clothing in order to augment weight isn't allowed. Rules are very strict in reference to weigh-ins. Do you have a video proving that Roy received special treatment? http://www.iabboxing.com/RulesWeighIns.htm Jones Himself tells us that he legitimately weighed 193 pounds: Of the world titles I won, moving up from light-heavy to heavyweight was the most difficult. Gaining the weight was the problem: I ate a whole load of protein – steak, lobster, meat protein everyday – and lifted weights over a six-week period. My natural weight is 168lb [76kg], so super-middleweight was the easiest world title to win. For heavyweight, I was 193lb [88kg] https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/oct/26/boxing-roy-jones-jnr BTW Billy Con would have done the same to Joe Louis and Billy Con only weighed 168. He had the fight won on all scorecards before he threw it away. The last time there was a bigger weight discrepancy between a light-heavyweight and a bona fide heavyweight titleholder was in 1941 when Billy Conn came in at 169, 35 pounds lighter than Joe Louis. Conn led through 12 rounds before getting knocked out in the 13th. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2003-feb-28-sp-boxing28-story.html
There are plenty of articles stating he weighed in with shoes and other clothing on. If you watch a replay of the fight just forward it to the beginning tale of the tape and they explain Jones corner states he is really 189-190. But “officially” 193.
Actually, Moore rode a lot of those shots. I think it’s fair to say Rocky sacrificed a lot of quality over quantity in their fight. He had to throw a lot of leather and smother Archie just to wear him down. Because Moore was always going to pot shot and counter the hell out of him if Marciano had of timed and set himself for power. Rocky hit harder than that. He just increased volume rather than power in order to win that time. Much like the way Tua fought Ibeabuchi. Tua didn’t hit Ike with his best shots either.
So that is why you don’t rate Rocky as a puncher? You see him only as a grinder! I’ve always considered Rocky as a counter pressure fighter who can grind if he needs to. If you look at Rocky in the rematch to Walcott, or kid Mathews he stalks and sets up a chilling knockouts. An out and out attrition fighter wouldn’t have done that. He was a puncher who could grind.
I said basically a grinder, neither did I say he was an out and out attrition fighter and I've never said he wasn't a puncher ,I've acknowledged he was at least 3 times on this thread! Please don't attempt to score points by putting words in my mouth I never said.I can speak very well for myself! Mathews was a light heavy and Walcott elected to stay down imo. Joe Frazier ,basically another grinder scored a chilling ko over Bob Foster a light heavy,show me another of his over a heavyweight of any class?
Well you always disagree to include Mathis and Ellis...even though those guys were well and truly out when they were decked. It’s like Tyson was out looking for his gum shield, those two were still out when they basically sleepwalked/collapsed into the ropes after getting up at 9 and a half.
There's no case for Rocky beating Tua, I'm sorry. Marciano is the better fighter by a light year, but the size difference would be too vast.
Well the weight differential between Marciano and Tua is actually less than the difference between Tyson and Tua of the Sullivan fight if the best version of Tua is used. This forum overwhelmingly voted for Tyson to beat 37lb heavier Tua. Why shouldn’t Marciano win against the version who fought ibeabuchi? After all he’s giving away a smaller amount than Tyson? Marciano will have the same advantage as Tyson in that he’s fighting a wider target of a similar height that he won’t have to do anything elaborate to land punches on. And he’s much better inside than Tyson would be. So yeah, Tua is bigger. A bigger target. Rocky can pound out a win here like he did against Don Cokkell.
