By your logic James Toney hits harder than George foreman since toney stopped holyfield. Holyfield claimed foreman was the hardest hitter. Don't shift the goal posts. Agree or disagree?
I have directly addressed your points over and over on this thread. I can do it again in the hope that it sinks in this time though if you want? 1. Bob was knocked flat within months of meeting Williams. Bob was knocked out early throughout his career against the best punchers he fought. Williams was 25lb the bigger man in their fight. 2. Williams was 33-1. Floyd Patterson And Mike Tyson were world champions by that many fights and at a similar age. Most young fighters know what they are doing after that many fights. 3. Williams was fighting between 10 and 15 times a year when he met Satterfeild. Every couple of weeks. It is a well established fact that anyone fighting this often Is always ready to fight. So it just won’t hold water to say anything else. Bivins was the interim heavyweight champion during the war. He was more often over 180lb even before he fought Moore. Bivins could make lightheavyweight but he was a heavyweight. And this is why Bivins was 186lb the first time he fought Archie Moore. Bivins and Moore would often flatten 200 pound plus fighters around the size of Williams. Satterfeild too. As you know Williams was smoked by Satterfeild. And Satterfeild was not as good as Moore.
As a former professional boxer with vast amateur boxing experience, i'm rather surprised to hear you say this. It would rather seem to be the opposite of the truth rather than the truth. For example, fighters who don't know they are fighting are much more likely to neglect diet, sleep and proper hydration; they're much more likely to have sex, drink alcohol, do drugs, and stay up extremely late whether that's having sex with two prostitutes for 8 hours or reading their favourite book. I would say two days notice is very bad news for any fighter hoping to obtain prime in the ring, especially one who had recently depleted stores in a fight. However, i'll bow to your superior experience as a former professional athlete, paid to punch!
This can be true when a fighter is only appearing two or three times a year. That’s not what they say about Harry Greb though is it? Williams schedule was similar to Harry Greb/ Mike Tyson schedule. Fighting every couple of weeks like that boxing really is like a regular full time job. Certainly they can still party all night right after each match then tick over during the week in the gym until the next call. Williams had plenty of time to bang hookers soon after his most previous fight ( -an impressive revenge win over Sly Jones just 14 days earlier) then get back into the gym without undoing what he went into the ring with 14 days earlier. Seems to me the late call would be no problem at all. Amateur boxers train throughout the season and take fights at 2 days notice all the time. A schedule like this is exactly the same. I have a hunch Williams was due to fight anyway. He was kept very busy during this stage of his career. I haven’t looked into it but It’s very likely he was in the gym since his last fight.
Williams wasn't fighting every couple of weeks, he was fighting around every couple of months. Irrespective of your "hunch" on the subject, he had been out of the gym for the 12 days following his ko of Sylvester Jones and then suddenly had 2 days to prepare to fight a world class ko artist. At this point he had already received his military call-up papers and it was obvious that his career was going to have to be put on hold whatever happened. As for the idea that the "33-1" against his name means he was a veteran at the age of 20, Cleveland Williams had no amateur career at all. He turned pro at the age of 18 and learned his trade knocking out novices and clubfighters for money. He can't be compared to a fighter like Patterson who had been boxing since his early teens.
Nope. If a fighter thinks his next fight is the 29th, and he finds out instead he is fighting on the 9th and he finds this out on the 7th, he can be in all sorts of trouble. Irrefutably. Not that it really matters, I was just surprised hearing a former professional talk that way. Ah you're having another one of your hunches!! Why didn't you say?
Williams was getting the right kind of opponents to build into a top fighter though. And he definitely fought enough of the right type of opponent to prepare him for a step up with Satterfeild. Williams got plenty of hand selected Good learning fights where he had all the physical advantages and they had all the experience. Already he had fought guys like Omelio Agramante who had been in with a lot of top men like Joe Louis, Walcott and others. Cleveland had already fought the tough Keene Simmons who had given Marciano such a hard fight that Rocky would employ him as a sparring partner during his championship days. Another Marciano opponent selected for Williams was Art Henry who had beat Ted Lowrey. Williams had also already been measured against ponce Deleon a common victim of many of the top fighters of the day who had tangled with Rex Layne, Tiger Jack Fox, Johnny Summerlin And would later meet Liston Foley and Dejohn. So these fights had all help develop a young fighter into a respectable headline draw. Already Cleveland had been showcased in New York on the undercard of one of Marcianos championship fights and had went on to erase the one loss he had experienced in doing so with Sly Jones. Experience like this makes up for an amateur career. All in all, Williams had very much been fighting the same kinds of men fed to all other champions. They had taken their time with him and Williams career was certainly ready for somebody like Satterfield.
We both know it depends on when he last fought too. A fighter who fought on the 1st. Fought a good fight after being properly prepared entering that fight, And is used to fighting quite frequently is not going to be badly prepared if he finds out on the 12th of the same month that he also has a fight on the 14th. He’s just days away from being fully prepared. Ken Buchanan famously said he trained 4 days every week throughout his Amateur and professional career so that he was always ready to fight. He didn’t need to go into camp because he maintained the whole time. He did not change that from his time as an amateur. A fighter who is being kept busy and is being brought along in this way, fighting 10 times a year or so will have to have a training schedule no different to that. Ticking over in the gym between fights. He won’t always need to know when the next fight is because he’s always ready. Journeymen certainly do this as well. Williams certainly looked ripped and healthy in the photo of the Satterfeild loss.
Yeah yeah, "It is a well established fact that anyone fighting this often Is always ready to fight" is not true. You made it up.
I didn’t make it up. How many times have you heard Harry Greb fought so often he didn’t need to train that much?
You did. If a fighter has two days notice on a fight there are all kinds of things he could have been doing T-minus one day that mean he can't possibly be in good shape for the ring on day three. It's fact, and that you've spent four posts trying to deny that is an embarrassment. Harry Greb can't save you
I agree generaly two days notice (when you say it like that) is no where near enough notice. Generally fighterss fight 3 times per year. So generally, that is absolutely not enough. I haven’t spent 4 posts trying to deny anything because we don’t even know if Williams was in training for a fight or not, he most likely was because having been part of a heavy boxing Schedule that accommodated between 10-20 fights per year he most likely was “fight ready” for the entire duration. Put it this way. A fighter fighting ten times per year is more likely ready to cope on 2 days notice than a 3 fight a year boxer. Agree or disagree? If you are fighting between once and twice a month for 12 months of a year, discounting injury, a fighter is always ready. And I stand by that. You are the one trying to defend a much more active, bigger fighter, with youth on his side, who has fought over 30 times, coming off career best wins against the smaller man lighter by 25lb who was knocked dead just 6 months earlier on the basis of short notice during a 10 fight a year schedule... Have a word with yourself.
I usually like to spread out my nut busting sessions to 3x a week. That way i will normally have a full days sleep between sessions to allow myself time to recharge. Then if i get lucky and a woman calls/texts me back i wont be completely drained, with the added bonus that I wont be dealing with a lot of anxiety and can relax so I wont bust early. This, in my humble opinion, is a far better schedule than busting nuts all day every day and assuming i wont get a call or text on a 2 hour notice. Its good to be prepared, but unless you work in the adult industry, no man can just gather his bearings after a thorough rub session and expect to please a woman at the last minute (especially if she's a seasoned veteran). The point of that graphic and silly analogy is to show you how ridiculous (excuse the pun) the lengths you are going to not give a 20 year old Williams any slack for being notified on a 2 days notice that he will be facing an experienced and dangerous puncher. Once again, you intentionally box yourself into a corner acting as the contrarian when everyone else seems to be on the same page. Ill use another a analogy: Joshua winning nearly every round and the judges seeing it as a unanimous decision. Everyone with an ounce of boxing knowledge who saw the fight saw it as a unanimous decision. How silly would you look claiming Ruiz won 10 rounds to 2...? Doesn't matter that other fighters had fought and/or beaten fighters of the calibre of Satterfield in their 34th fight. Not everyone develops at the same rate. Tyson and Patterson were groomed from an early age by a genius trainer with top notch facilities and a good amateur background. The excuse for a lot of Mexican boxers is that they don't always have an extensive amateur background so they learn on the job. This is the same excuse Rocky Marciano fans make for continuing to face mediocre competition well into his 30th bout. Again, where is your consistency? It is completely illogical to expect a fighter to be fully prepared at 20 years of age with little amateur experience on a 2 days notice to face a dangerous 6'2 slugger. Even if they live, breath, sleep boxing there are an endless number of possibilities that could throw them off: flat tire, sick kid, tired from day job, spent all day busting nuts, etc. Why be disingenuous and bring up Harry Greb like he was the norm and not the exception? Im sure you know this, but Greb is literally somewhere in the top 10 spot of many respectable people's top boxers of all time lists (some even have him #1). So since Williams couldn't live up to that standard he's a bum and a slacker? Is that what i should gather from your post? Maybe because you have an agenda and would rather rope a dope now that you're in a corner instead of simply conceding this point? Hint: in this scenario you are getting hit more often than the dope, which defeats the purpose.
