The underrated Jimmy Young

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by PhillyPhan69, Jan 6, 2020.



  1. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jimmy Young: A Career Worth Remembering
    March 2, 2005
    By Frank Lotierzo
    Part I

    Jimmy Young stood slightly over 6'1″ and weighed between 209 and 213 pounds during the prime fighting years of his career from 1974-77. His style was hard to interpret. Some considered him a boxer and others viewed him as a counterpuncher. He was known for being extremely hard to hit. Young actually went entire fights without being caught once with a solid punch. He frustrated the boxers and took the bullets out of the guns of the sluggers. He had good hand speed, but he was more sneaky than fast. His basics were sound, but he was more cunning than he was a great boxer. Young’s opponents were often frustrated by his unconventional tactics. His lack of one-punch knockout power led some to think he couldn't compete with the upper-tier heavyweights of his era, but he beat some of the greatest punchers in heavyweight history during his career.

    Many of his fights were hard to score and his style wasn't considered crowd-pleasing by many purists, which may have been the reason he lost a few close decisions in some of the biggest bouts of his career. Jimmy Young fought in the 1970s, a time many historians believe was the best era in heavyweight history. His name is sometimes wrongly omitted from the lineage linking Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Quarry, Lyle and Shavers.

    In January of 1969 Young turned pro and won a four round decision over Jimmy Gilmore. In his sixth bout he lost a four round decision to the 6'5″ 230-pound Roy “Tiger” Williams, who at the time had twice as much experience as Young. In my opinion that was the first mistake made by Young's management. Williams was too big and dangerous at the time for the inexperienced Young, and the upside of winning wasn’t worth the risk.

    But the biggest injustice by his handlers came in his 11th bout when they matched him with rising knockout artist Earnie Shavers, who stopped him in the first round. This fight can only be rationalized by someone in the Young camp who was desperately in need of money, or due to total ineptness on the part of the person who had the final say. When Jimmy Young fought Earnie Shavers the first time, he only had 10 fights under his belt. Shavers was a former National AAU champion being managed by Don King. On top of that, Shavers was 42-2 in 44 pro fights, winning 41 by knockout. Young's management made a monumental mistake putting him in against Shavers in only his eleventh fight. It's remarkable his psyche wasn't shattered and he went on to beat the fighters he did after that.

    A year and a half later Young (13-4-1) fought a rematch with Shavers (46-4). This time the fight went the scheduled 10 rounds. The fight was declared a draw and would later prove to be an omen for Young's career when it came to getting the call in close fights. I have only seen this fight on tape, but I scored it for Young. Over the years I've talked to more than a few fighters and trainers who were at the fight and saw it live. Everyone says the same thing. Young won it.

    After his rematch with Shavers, Young fought another former National AAU champion and rising knockout artist named Ron Lyle (30-1-1). Prior to fighting Young, Lyle had defeated former champ Jimmy Ellis, as well as veteran contenders Buster Mathis, Oscar Bonavena and Larry Middleton. The only blemish on Lyle's record was his upset loss to Jerry Quarry two years earlier. Lyle, like Shavers, was a heavy favorite to defeat Young. Young fought one of the best fights of his career versus Lyle, winning by unanimous decision. With two impressive showings against ranked contenders Earnie Shavers and Ron Lyle, Young was right in the middle of the heavyweight title picture. Young posted two wins after Lyle and finished 1975 ranked ninth among The Ring’s top ten heavyweights in the world.

    Young kicked off 1976 by defeating former title challenger Jose “King” Roman on February 20, raising his record to 17-4-2, while extending his unbeaten streak to 12. On April 30, 1976, seven years after turning pro, Jimmy Young fought undisputed heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali on ABC. At the time, Ali was bigger than boxing. Young would be the sixth fighter Ali defended his title against after regaining it from George Foreman in October of 1974. In Ali's last six fights before he fought Jimmy Young, he won five of them by stoppage. Among the fighters Ali stopped were George Foreman, Ron Lyle and Joe Frazier – and neither Foreman nor Lyle had ever been stopped before fighting Ali.

    In the biggest fight of his career, Jimmy Young not only survived, but you could count the number of times he was hit cleanly by Ali. Young took Ali out of his game, causing him to miss more punches than any fighter Ali ever fought. Young forced Ali to fight as the aggressor the entire fight, and that wasn't Ali's forte. Young totally frustrated and bewildered Ali for 15 rounds. Ali tried everything against Young, but was unable to solve his style. At the end of the fifteenth round, Ali was no closer to figuring out how to fight Young than he was in the first round. In a fight that most thought he lost, Ali won a unanimous decision over Jimmy Young to retain his title.

    Due to his terrific showing in his fight with Ali, Young remained in title contention with Foreman, Norton and Lyle, who were all vying for a rematch with Ali and a shot at the crown. Six weeks before fighting a rematch with Ron Lyle in November of 1976, Muhammad Ali won a unanimous decision over Ken Norton to again retain his title. Although some viewed Ali's victory over Norton as controversial, it wasn't controversial to the same degree as the decision verdict that went against Young. There were just as many who saw the fight for Ali as there were those who saw it for Norton. Everyone knew Young totally outclassed Ali and made him look like an amateur.

    The Young-Lyle rematch was shown on ABC. Young outboxed Lyle, this time for 12 rounds instead of 10. Young won another unanimous decision over Lyle in a rematch that looked like a rerun of their first fight. Four months after beating Lyle, Young, as the third ranked heavyweight in the world, fought former heavyweight champion George Foreman. Foreman was the top ranked heavyweight in the world and in the midst of a five bout knockout streak since returning to the ring. With Ali having escaped Young and Norton in 1976, Foreman was next in line for a title shot. Foreman clamored for a rematch with Ali ever since losing the title in Zaire. Only Jimmy Young stood between Foreman and a rematch with Ali. For Foreman it was simple: beat Young and Ali will be forced to fight him again.

    On March 17, 1977, George Foreman (45-1) fought Jimmy Young (20-5-2) in what was billed as a world heavyweight title elimination bout between the division’s first and third ranked contenders. The fight was held in the heat outside Roberto Clemente Coliseum in Puerto Rico. Young arrived in Puerto Rico a week before the bout fit and ready to go at 213 pounds. Foreman didn't show up until the day before the fight and weighed in at 229. By showing up the day before the fight, Foreman never had a chance to acclimate to the temperature.

    For the first five rounds Foreman was content to follow Young around the ring as Young picked his spots to flurry. Sensing he was behind, Foreman picked it up in the sixth round. The seventh round is where the fight slipped away from Foreman. Foreman nailed Young with a left hook that literally sent him to the other side of the ring. Young remained on his feet but was in serious trouble, appearing to be a punch or two away from being stopped. But Young didn't panic and smartly concentrated on making sure Foreman didn't catch him clean with another big shot, instead of foolishly trying to fight him off. Foreman emptied the wagon in the last minute of round seven trying to get Young out, but was unable tag Young with another big shot to finish him.
     
  2. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Part 2
    From the eighth round on, Young outthought and outfought the tiring Foreman. By the 12th round the crowd was chanting “Jimmy Young, Jimmy Young, Jimmy Young,” which actually sounded like they were saying “Gimme Young.” In the final minute a flurry of Young punches knocked the exhausted Foreman off balance, causing his knee to touch the canvas, which was ruled an official knockdown. When the decision was announced, Young was the unanimous decision victor by the scores of 118-111, 116-113 and 115-114. The Foreman-Young bout was voted 1977 Fight of the Year by Ring Magazine. After the fight Foreman retired. It was Young who was thought to be next in line for a title shot at reigning heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali.

    On September 14, 1977, two weeks prior to Muhammad Ali's title defense against Earnie Shavers, Jimmy Young and Ken Norton fought what was billed as a double main event. With Norton and Young both winning, they maintained their rankings at the top of the division and waited for Ali and Shavers. On September 29, 1977, an aging and eroding Muhammad Ali made his 10th consecutive successful title defense winning a unanimous decision over Earnie Shavers.

    This is where things became interesting and the influence of Muhammad Ali was never more evident. With Ali's win over Shavers, and with Foreman's retirement, the question became who would Ali defend the title against next? It was just a year earlier that Young lost a controversial decision to Ali in April, and Norton lost a disputed decision to Ali in September. This is where Ali, as the heavyweight champ, called the shots, but with the pressure on Ali to fight both Norton and Young again, he was in a bind. But Ali, being the escape artist he was, found a way out. Ali told the media that he's old and getting ready to retire. With that he implied: I'm not fighting both Young and Norton. He suggested that Young and Norton fight and that he would defend the title against the fighter who won. And so it was.

    On November 5, 1977 at Caesars Palace in Las Vegas, number one ranked Ken Norton (39-4) fought number two ranked Jimmy Young (22-5-2) in what was billed as a WBC heavyweight title eliminator. The fight was shown on ABC with Ken Norton's number one cheerleader, Howard Cosell, doing the commentary. Cosell was joined by another famous boxing personality rooting on Norton: a man named Muhammad Ali. Throughout the entire bout Ali made no attempt to hide his feelings as to who he wanted to win. Despite Norton's style giving him trouble in three fights, Ali was able to hit Norton with hard right hands and shook him pretty good in their second and third fights. That wasn't the case when he fought Young. The few times AIi hit Young cleanly, and there weren't many, he was never able to follow it up, thus he never gained control of the fight. There was no doubt about it. Ali viewed Norton, the fighter whose style troubled him more than any other opponent he ever fought, as being the easier fight. On top of that, Norton represented a bigger payday for Ali than Young did.

    The Norton-Young bout unfolded the way most thought it would. Norton tried to cut the ring off and go to Young's body. Young tried to keep from getting caught against the ropes while trying to catch Norton with right hands as he was coming in. During the fight Young froze Norton in his tracks for a brief second with a couple of rights hands he landed from outside. Norton had his best rounds during the middle of the fight when he was able to force Young to the ropes, scoring big hooks to both sides of Young's body. Despite Norton's effective body attack, Young made him pay, answering with clean hooks and straight right hands to the head.

    The pattern and flow of the fight didn't vary much and both fighters had their moments. Norton came out with a sense of urgency in the 15th round, giving the impression he felt he was behind. For the first half of the round Norton physically controlled Young, but Young caught a second wind and fired back with three and four punch combinations forcing Norton back. When the bell rang ending the fight, Young appeared more confident of victory than Norton.

    When the decision was announced, Young found himself on the losing end of a split decision. Two of the judges had the same score total 147-143 for Norton, with the third favoring Young 144-142. Norton's victory over Young was viewed by many boxing observers as being questionable. Many felt Norton lost. Once again, Young's non-aggressive style worked against him.

    The biggest money fight in the heavyweight division heading into 1978 was Ali-Norton IV, not a rematch between Ali and Young. It wasn't hard to figure out that Norton's image and style would work to his favor and most likely result in him getting the nod in the close rounds. However, there was only one fighter who was hurt or stunned during this fight, and that fighter was Norton. Young landed more clean punches and was never hurt or in trouble once in 15 rounds. It also helped that Norton was seen as being the better fighter before the fight started.

    Young's decision loss to Norton was the third major fight – the others being his rematch with Shavers and his title bout versus Ali – of his career that he came up on the wrong side of a close decision in a fight many believed he won. Based on what happened in the ring, it should have been Young slated to face the Ali-Spinks winner in February 1978.

    After Young's heartbreaking loss to Norton, he was never the same fighter. He fought for more than 10 years after his fight with Norton, but he seemed to be just going through the motions. Young became a trial horse playing the role of the spoiler for the up and coming young heavyweights. Future heavyweight titleholders Michael Dokes (14-0), Greg Page (18-0), Tony Tubbs (15-0), and Tony Tucker (25-0) all won decision victories over Young on their march to the title. Only Gerry Cooney (22-0) stopped Young in 1980 with a vicious, slashing uppercut. In his bout with Cooney, Young was more than holding his own before the cut affected him his vision. But even Cooney couldn't knock him out or stagger him while unloading numerous left hooks on a defenseless Young, who couldn't see because of all the blood.

    It must also be mentioned that Young spoiled Marvin Stinson's hopes at a top-ten rating as the result of Young taking him to school in 1981. And Young all but retired prospect Wendell Bailey (13-1) when he knocked him out on the undercard of the Larry Holmes-Mike Weaver WBC title bout. The hard-punching Jeff Sims also viewed Young as an easy win before losing by unanimous decision.

    When all is said and done, Jimmy Young will most likely not be elected to the International Boxing Hall of Fame. But if Jimmy Young is judged by what he did in the ring during his prime, it's not so easy to say he doesn't belong.

    The 1970s are considered to be the best era in heavyweight history, with dominant fighters like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Quarry, Lyle and Shavers (Larry Holmes is an ‘80s fighter and was only a factor during the 1970s from June 1978 forward.)

    Young fought five of the magnificent seven mentioned above, missing only Frazier and Quarry. His record during that period says he's 3-3-1, losing to Shavers, Ali and Norton, but after an evaluation, it could easily be argued that he is 6-1 and the loss was to Shavers, when Young had just 10 fights under his belt compared to Shavers’ 44. I see that loss as being the result of a terrible decision on behalf of his handlers.

    The other two loses are to Ali and Norton with the draw coming in his rematch with Shavers. I saw Young's fights with Muhammad Ali and Ken Norton. I don't need anyone to try and justify what I saw. What I saw was Jimmy Young outbox and outpoint both Ali and Norton. Take away the name Ali and Norton, and Young gets the decision every time. As far as the Shavers rematch, I've only seen that on tape. Watching the tape I scored it for Young. On top of that, in the 30 plus years since the fight, I've never talked to one single fighter, trainer or fan that saw the fight who didn’t think Young won.

    Need more? In 27 rounds against the fighter who is usually rated no lower then number two all-time, Muhammad Ali, and the fighter considered the strongest and hardest puncher in heavyweight history, George Foreman, based on the fighting that took place in the ring, Young is 2-0. Name another heavyweight who can make that claim.

    If what happened in the ring is secondary to a decision rendered by the officials, then Jimmy Young probably shouldn't make the Hall of Fame. However, if what actually happens in the ring during the fight counts for anything, then it can be said that Jimmy Young beat Muhammad Ali (50-2), George Foreman (45-1), Ron Lyle (62-5-2), Earnie Shavers (88-6) and Ken Norton (39-4) a combined 284-18-2. Other than Muhammad Ali, no other heavyweight who fought during the 1970s beat as many top fighters as Jimmy Young. Go ahead and try to come up with another heavyweight from the 1970s, excluding Ali, who can say they bettered five fighters of that caliber in the ring.
     
  3. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    part 3 of 3

    I'll tell you right now, Joe Frazier can't claim victory over five fighters of that caliber. Neither can George Foreman, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers or Ken Norton. Ali, Frazier and Foreman make almost every historian’s all-time list of top-ten heavyweight champions. Ali, Frazier and Foreman are first ballot Hall of Famers.

    Ken Norton was recently elected to the International Boxing Hall of Fame. George Foreman knocked out Ken Norton. Jimmy Young beat George Foreman. Ken Norton looked the other way when Ron Lyle was mentioned as a possible opponent for him to fight. Jimmy Young beat Ron Lyle twice while he was in his prime.

    Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes are considered two of the greatest heavyweight champions who ever lived and both defeated Norton by decision in a world title fight. Jimmy Young beat Norton easier than Ali or Holmes, and was never hurt by him, unlike Ali and Holmes. Ken Norton is in the Hall of Fame. Jimmy Young beat Ken Norton. Somebody please explain why Young isn't worthy of Hall of Fame consideration.
     
  4. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jimmy Young: How He Exposed 'The Greatest'

    By Frank Lotierzo



    The 1976 heavyweight title bout between champion Muhammad Ali (50-2) and challenger Jimmy Young (17-4-2) is most remembered for the decision rendered by the referee and two judges scoring the fight. Ali won a 15-round unanimous decision over Young to retain his undisputed heavyweight title. Saying Ali's decision victory over Young is controversial is an understatement. Young forced the champ to fight the type of fight that he was least effective fighting. There were times during the 15 rounds that Ali more resembled a fish out of water flopping on the beach than he did “The Greatest.”

    Even passionate Ali fans, blinded by their bias, must accept that although he was a great fighter, he was technically flawed. In the years since the fight, Ali's lack of conditioning has been used to justify his poor showing against Young. What has been disregarded is that it was Young's style that nullified Ali's strengths. The simple fact is Ali had no strategic clue how to fight Young.

    The most telling thing that took place in the Ali-Young fight has been completely overlooked by too many boxing historians, writers and fans. This is due to an overwhelming percentage of boxing observers who saw the fight and believe Young won. From the time the decision favoring Ali was announced, it's been the focal point of all conversation whenever the fight is discussed. Instead of remembering Jimmy Young for losing the decision, boxing history should remember him as the fighter who strategically plucked the wings from the butterfly, and took the sting from the bee.

    Eighteen months after regaining the title from George Foreman, Ali made his sixth defense, this time against Philly heavyweight Jimmy Young. Young was in his seventh year fighting as a pro, and incidentally did his training at Joe Frazier's gym on Broad Street in North Philadelphia. By the end of 1975, Young was ranked ninth among Ring Magazine's top ten heavyweights.

    At this point in his career, Ali took two things for granted when he went into the ring. It was only after his fight with Young that it became obvious those two things actually worked against him. With Ali having survived the assault of Sonny Liston twice, Joe Frazier three times, George Foreman, and Ron Lyle, he had so much confidence in his chin, the possibility of him being knocked out didn't exist in his mind. The downside of that mind set sometimes led him to cut corners while training. This resulted in him not being in top condition for many of his post 1975 title defenses. For his title defense against Jimmy Young, Ali weighed a career high 230-pounds.

    There was something else Ali assumed when he fought. In his 52 previous fights, he was never forced to fight as the aggressor, especially for an entire fight. He took it for granted that every opponent he faced would bring the fight to him. When Ali's opponents came to him, he was in complete control. Only in his three fights with “Smokin” Joe Frazier did that pattern make the fight harder for him. Frazier's unrelenting pressure forced Ali to fight, not allowing him to pick his spots to flurry with three and four punch combinations. This made Frazier the fighter controlling the tempo and ring geography. As long as the fighter coming at Ali wasn't Frazier, Ali had his way and was in control.

    Maybe because Jimmy Young trained in Philadelphia, a city known for grooming aggressive fighters, the Ali camp didn't do enough homework on him. Since Young wasn't a knockout puncher, Ali's cast-iron chin was irrelevant. On top of that, Jimmy Young was the antithesis of a typical Philly fighter. He waited on his opponents and never took the fight to them. This was the key to Young's success against Ali. It was more a case of Young's style exposing Ali's lack of boxing basics 101, then it was of Young being a boxing genius.

    The bout between Ali and Young started slow. By the end of the fifth round, Ali still hadn't landed a noteworthy punch. It wasn't that he was getting worked over, or hurt, but the only clean punches of the fight were scored by Jimmy Young. What made this fight so different from any other Ali fight was seeing him moving forward and following Young around the ring. By forcing Ali to carry the fight, Young reversed Ali's role in it. With Ali trying to track down Young, he knew where Ali was, and where Ali was going to be. Being forced to fight like George Foreman was not Ali's forte, and something he never had to do before.

    For a majority of the 15 rounds of the fight, Jimmy Young made Ali look like an amateur, causing him to lunge and miss with many of his punches. Not only was Ali finding mostly air when he let his hands go, Young countered Ali's missed shots with two and three punch flurries that found their mark, resulting in Ali suffering a broken ear drum.

    Throughout his career Muhammad Ali was taken to task by critics for never punching to the body, despite it never costing him in a fight until he fought Young. In Young, Ali faced a fighter who, like him, was hard to hit cleanly to the head, especially with lead punches. However, Young was vulnerable to a body attack. Because Ali ignored his opponent's body his entire career, he cut his scoring territory in half. Against Young, Ali needed that other half that he never needed before.

    Ali's style was predicated on him moving back and away, circling to his left. This forced his opponents to stalk him. It was paramount for his opponent to cut the ring off. If they could take away his space, it would be easier for them to force his back to the ropes or into a corner.

    With Young moving away from Ali, coupled with the champ's non-existent body attack, Ali had nothing in his arsenal to solve Young's style. Ali's offense was reduced to throwing quick one-twos while he lumbered forward, every once in a while trying to sneak in a right lead. With Young stepping back or moving to the side, one of Ali's best punches, the lead right, was nullified.

    What worked against the aggression of Liston, Frazier, Quarry, Foreman and Lyle was offset by Young's non-aggression. Young was also aided by his good hand speed. He didn't have Ali or Patterson-type hand speed, but his hands were pretty quick. For the first time Ali couldn't rely on his instincts to pull a fight out. He was forced to think about what he needed to do. This enabled Young to get off quick flurries during Ali's periods of indecision. On top of that, because Ali never learned to slip, block, or parry incoming punches, it was easier for Young to hit him flush. Ali's only true defense was pulling away and leaning back from punches thrown at him. By him moving forward, his effectiveness pulling back was severely comprised.

    In this fight, Ali confronted a boxer who was susceptible to all the basics he never thought he needed or bothered to learn. In 17 world championship fights, Ali never needed to go to the body to win. What separated Young from Ali's previous opponents was Ali had to fight as the predator. Ali was used to being pursued, which made it easy for him to catch his opponents as they tried to get inside his jab. That's why Ali never had to rely on leading with his hook, because the counter hook was there against fighters pressuring him.

    It wasn't until April 30, 1976 that Ali's lack of boxing basics and fundamental defense became so obvious. For 15 rounds, Young forced Ali to fight as the predator instead of the prey. The problem was Ali only knew how to fight as the prey. When fighting in the role as the fighter being hunted, Ali had all of his physical skills at his disposal. However, when forced to carry the fight, he was out of his comfort zone and no longer “The Greatest.”

    Jimmy Young should have won the decision in his fight versus Ali. He was the fighter who exhibited superior ring generalship, landed the cleaner punches, and his defense was brilliant, with him rarely getting hit in 45 minutes in the same ring with Ali. What hurt Young was that he stuck his body outside the ropes four different times while Ali had him pinned against them. This gave the impression he didn't want to engage Ali, which made it hard to justify giving the champion's title to the challenger. The challenger has to take the title.

    Jimmy Young should be remembered as the fighter who showed the boxing world all the boxing basics Muhammad Ali never learned as a fighter. Because Ali didn't think he needed to. For 52 fights he was right. Until he fought Jimmy Young.
     
  5. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Part 1

    Jimmy Young: A Personal Recollection

    By Frank Lotierzo



    On February 20, 2005, after a six day stay at Hahnemann University Hospital in Philadelphia, former heavyweight title challenger and contender Jimmy Young, 56, passed away. The cause of Young's untimely death was heart failure. The passing of Young caught me by surprise and hit me hard. He was more than a fighter I saw on television. I knew Jimmy Young. We weren't friends, but from about mid-1977 through early 1982, Jimmy and I worked out at the same gym and I got to know him.

    It was about six months before he challenged Muhammad Ali for the undisputed heavyweight title that I began to follow his boxing career. In October of 1975 my family moved to Cherry Hill, New Jersey. With the exception of rush hour, Cherry Hill is roughly 20-25 minutes outside the city of Philadelphia.

    Shortly after moving into the new house, workmen came to hang the drapes my mother ordered. Since the workmen were from Philadelphia, I asked them if they ever saw Joe Frazier around town. One of the guys said he was a huge boxing fan and often went to Frazier's gym on Broad Street to watch the fighters train.

    During the conversation he asked me if I ever heard of a Philly heavyweight named Jimmy Young. I told him that I knew he upset Ron Lyle, but never saw him fight. I remember him specifically telling me to remember the name Jimmy Young. He said Young was a slick boxer that nobody wanted to fight. After they left, I found Jimmy Young's record in a recent issue of Ring Magazine. Being young and dumb, I wrote him off after seeing he had four loses on his record. Years later when I knew how to interpret a fighter’s record, I understood how mismanagement led to those early defeats and how insignificant they were.

    On April 30, 1976, six months after being told to remember the name Jimmy Young, he fought Muhammad Ali for the undisputed heavyweight title on ABC. Young wasn't given much of a chance to take the title from Ali, despite Ali weighing a career high 230 pounds for the fight. Ali retained the title by winning a 15-round unanimous decision over Young, a fight many who saw it thought Ali lost.

    Less than a year after the Ali-Young bout, I started boxing at the Cherry Hill Police Athletic League (PAL), under the tutelage of former middleweight champ Joey Giardello. I had such passion for boxing that I quickly picked up everything he taught me. After training for about five months, despite being a middleweight, I was too advanced for even the heavyweights training at the PAL.

    One day Mr. Giardello said to me that I was getting a little too happy with myself and wasn't being challenged when sparring with the other fighters at the PAL. He said, “If you want to be the champ of Cherry Hill, fine, stay here. But Frank, if you're serious about boxing, you'll never get any better then you are now unless you go to the city and train. Tomorrow morning be at Frazier's Gym around 10:30 and ask for Georgie Benton. Tell him that I suggested you start training in the city, and ask him if he would be willing to work with you.”

    The following day I did exactly as he suggested. This is where I first met Jimmy Young. Young had just defeated top ranked and former heavyweight champ George Foreman in his last fight, and was getting ready to fight Jody Ballard in Vegas.

    I remember Jimmy drove a turquoise Lincoln Mark V. On the trunk the words “Jimmy Young” were en-scripted with a boxing glove hanging down on each side. One of the first memories I have of Jimmy is him coming into the gym with Ted and Slim, and a big boom box playing the song “You Know I Love You” by Breakwater. Within a few weeks Jimmy and I began talking on a regular basis. When Jimmy got back after beating Jody Ballard, we started talking more frequently. Our topics were usually music, cars and boxing, in that order.

    A month after returning from his fight with Ballard in September, he left for Vegas again for his next fight scheduled for November 5th. His opponent was number one ranked Ken Norton. Since Jimmy was ranked second, the fight between them was billed as a title elimination bout. The winner of Norton-Young was penciled in to fight Ali for the title in early 1978. Jimmy was in great shape for Norton and fought a terrific fight against him. The fight turned out to be more action packed than anticipated and went the scheduled 15 round distance. When the decision was announced, Norton won a controversial split decision. And as Jimmy has been quoted saying over the years, “He (Norton) didn't think he won it, and was as surprised as I was when it was announced.”

    Since his passing, it has been widely reported that he lost his desire after losing the decision to Norton. Jimmy told the story more than once about how he ran into Norton in Vegas, while he was out there to fight Ossie Ocasio on the Norton-Holmes undercard. Young said Norton told him that he thought the decision was going to Young before it was announced.

    In my opinion, Jimmy never put his all into training and getting in shape as a result of his disappointment over the decision in the Norton fight. A year and a half after fighting Norton, as he was getting ready to fight Don King's latest protégé, Michael Dokes (14-0), somebody brought up his fight with Norton. He reflected back and said that the decision to Norton was worse than the decision to Ali. He said because Ali was the champ and bigger than boxing, to get a decision against him a fighter had to really beat him beyond a doubt. Young thought by him beating Foreman, Ali-Norton IV became the big fight in the division, and that worked against him when he fought Norton.

    During the summer of 2001, Ken Norton was a guest on my ESPN radio show “Toe To Toe.” He was in the midst of his book tour promoting his autobiography “Going The Distance.” Ken was very candid and talked openly about his career and the opponents he faced. With one exception, he wouldn't tell me when I asked him: Who hit harder, George Foreman or Earnie Shavers? He just said “next question.” I mentioned his three 15-round fights that ended in controversial decisions. He responded by saying that the one he won against Jimmy Young was the one he felt, before the decision was announced, was going to go against him. And the two he lost to Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes, he felt he won.

    The fight I think Jimmy put the most into post-Norton was his May 1980 fight with Gerry Cooney. While training for Cooney, his trainer George Benton was always reminding Jimmy that Cooney's management agreed to the fight because Jimmy wasn't a knockout puncher, and still had a name. Jimmy did a lot of sparring while getting ready for Cooney, but struggled to get his weight down. For the undefeated Cooney, Jimmy weighed 223 pounds, which was 10-14 pounds more than what was considered his best fighting weight.
     
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  6. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Part 2

    Despite the extra weight, Jimmy fought well against Cooney until getting cut. He was finding Gerry with his jab and actually moved him back a few times with right hands. When Cooney went to his body, Jimmy caught him with counter rights and short hooks to the head. Gil Clancy, who was doing the color commentary on CBS with Tim Ryan, said that Young was exposing Cooney's lack of experience.

    The fight came to an abrupt end after Cooney caught Jimmy with a half left uppercut/hook that opened a nasty gash over his eye. Cooney then began unloading his best uppercuts and hooks on a stationary Young. Although Jimmy was never staggered or close to being hurt, he couldn't answer Cooney with his own assault because his vision was severely impaired from all the blood flowing into his eyes. The fight ended in the fourth round, and, along with it, so did his hopes of ever getting back into title contention again in his career.

    Although it hasn't been reported, his loss to Cooney frustrated him and I think took whatever remaining spirit he had for boxing. Losing to Cooney cost Jimmy what he felt was his last shot at the title, which was something he badly wanted. Through different conversations between Jimmy, Randall “Tex” Cobb and me, Jimmy gave the impression that Don King thought if he beat Cooney, he could make a fight between Young and Holmes. Implying a win over Cooney would make him a more marketable opponent for Holmes, than was his last opponent Leroy Jones.

    Losing to Cooney because of a cut, something that never happened to him in his career, was the final straw. I still remember George Benton saying in words that cannot be repeated in this writing, leading up to his fight with Cooney, that if he ever wanted another shot at the title and big money, he had to win. Jimmy nodded in agreement.

    In the years after Norton, Jimmy talked openly about his career whenever he was asked a pointed question. He tired of always being asked about Ali and why he ducked in between the ropes during the fight; although he did say he did it to frustrate Ali. He further stated that the referee never once took a point from him or even threatened to penalize him. He loved talking about his two fights with Ron Lyle. Young said Lyle told him during their second fight that he fought like a girl, hoping to con him into fighting his fight because he was so flustered by his style.

    I always used to ask him to rank Foreman, Lyle, Shavers and Norton as punchers. Only I would do it in different ways to try and trick him, but he never fell for it. One day I would ask him to rank the four of them. A week later I'd say “Jimmy, Ali said Lyle hit harder than Shavers. What do you think?” He'd laugh and ask “What's changed in the last week?” Sometimes he'd clown and say that Joe “King” Roman and Richard Dunn hit harder than either Shavers or Foreman, only he couldn't keep a straight face. For those who must know, as I did, Jimmy rated the big punchers he fought in the following order: Shavers-1, Foreman-2, Lyle-3 and Norton-4.

    One of my favorite stories, circa mid March 1981, involved Jimmy Young and Randall “Tex” Cobb. George Benton was the trainer for both Jimmy and Randall at the time. Cobb was ranked among the top ten heavyweight contenders due to his upset of Earnie Shavers in his last fight. Jimmy and Randall worked with each other a lot preparing for their fights in the early eighties. On this day they were sparring for the final time before Cobb was to leave for Las Vegas for his upcoming fight with Michael Dokes (19-0-1) on ABC.

    During the second round while they were sparring, Jimmy nailed Randall with a couple of clean uppercuts to the face. This worried Benton, and he began saying loudly: “Be careful, Tex. I don't want to chance you getting cut this close to the fight.” All of the sudden Benton screamed “TIME!” He jumped into the ring and said, “Jimmy, stop throwing F***ing Uppercuts. We're leaving for Vegas later and I don't want Tex getting cut.” With that, Randall turned to Benton and said “F*** it, George! Throw 'em Jimmy, Dokes sure as hell will.” With that, Benton began lecturing Cobb about how he had to be extra careful with the fight being so close. Benton said the last thing they needed was for Cobb to get cut while sparring, causing the fight to be cancelled.

    After Jimmy and Randall yes'd Benton a few times, assuring him they were on the same page, they resumed sparring. The first punch Jimmy hit Randall with was another uppercut to the face. For the rest of the round Jimmy threw nothing but uppercuts at Randall.

    What I'll never forget are the funny faces Jimmy was making at George behind his back while he was lecturing Randall, trying to cause him to break up. Cobb was the type of guy who could ignore things like that if he wanted to. But Jimmy had this goofy look on his face while holding his glove up and moving it as to imitate Benton going on and on. Randall literally had to look away from Jimmy to keep from breaking up in George's face in the middle of his rant.

    I remember Jimmy Young. He was always friendly and greeted everyone with a smile. When people would come up to him and talk, he would always ask about their family and if they had kids. If there was ever something bothering him, you couldn't tell by his demeanor. I never heard him once speak badly about anyone. What I respect about him is, despite being cheated out of the two most important decisions of his career, he never whined and felt sorry for himself.

    I don't know if Jimmy Young will be elected to the boxing hall of fame. What I do know is, if there was a people hall of fame, the Jimmy Young I knew would be first ballot. Rest in Peace Jimmy.
     
  7. Hannibal Barca

    Hannibal Barca Active Member Full Member

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  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Young probably deserved the nod over Ali. Young was something of a puncher's worst nightmare as hard to hit cleanly to the head, and really showed how limited Lyle and Foreman were vs this type of fighter.

    I don't think Young could solve a much taller man's quick jab, but he didn't have too. He just had innate defensive skills. If you have not seen him before he's not quite a fast as you might guess.
     
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  9. red cobra

    red cobra VIP Member Full Member

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    Thank you PhillyPhan69 for this thread about my favorite heavyweight Jimmy Young!!:beer-toast1: He'll always be the most unappreciated master defensive boxer of all time. Criminally underrated IMHO.
     
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  10. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He was the hard luck kid of the era 3-3-1 in his 7 big time fights, but as the read said could very easily be 6-1! The epitome of the guy no one else wants to fight!
     
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  11. red cobra

    red cobra VIP Member Full Member

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    Absolutely!! Young was pure poison for the top names. He should have been awarded the fight & the title vs Ali...and at the very least, deserved the decision vs Norton. Ali was probably so glad to fight Norton...yes, even Norton(!) than to rematch Young.
     
  12. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Here we go again.

    I know people like Jimmy Young. I liked Jimmy Young when he was boxing. He was a very likeable guy. I always rooted for him, even though most of the time he looked like he couldn't care less and, at the final bell, you wondered why you bothered rooting for him. In terms of skill, he was a solid pro.

    Jimmy Young won 35 of his 57 fights. And he scored 11 knockouts. He was a pro for 21 years, and he basically had three strong years. The other 18 years of his career, he was ordinary at best.

    A lot of boxers put together a couple strong years. Young was one of them.

    But he doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Not by a LONG shot.

    Frank wrote thousands of words saying Jimmy Young lost interest and didn't care anymore after the Norton loss, and then finishes it with "he never felt sorry for himself." Of course Young felt sorry for himself, Frank, you just spent thousands of words making excuses for his losses and telling us he didn't care anymore because he felt sorry for himself that he didn't get the Norton decision.

    And he didn't beat Muhammad Ali and Ken Norton and Earnie Shavers and George Foreman and Ron Lyle.

    Jimmy doesn't have any wins over Ali, Norton and Shavers.

    And Jimmy could've received several more title shots. Even after he lost to Ocasio, Holmes said he fight the winner of the rematch. Jimmy lost that fight even worse than the first one.

    Young could've received a title shot if he beat Dokes, but he lost.

    Young could've received a title shot if he beat Cooney, but he lost.

    Young could've received a title shot if he won a decision over Greg Page, but he lost that, too.

    Some guys get one opportunity to prove themselves. Over the years, I've taken a harder look at Young. Like I said, I rooted for him back then. But it's not like he got one opportunity and never got another. And he lost A LOT.

    Obviously, Frank knew Jimmy Young and liked him. That's fine. Everybody liked him.

    But paragraphs like this are bizarre.

    If what happened in the ring is secondary to a decision rendered by the officials, then Jimmy Young probably shouldn't make the Hall of Fame. However, if what actually happens in the ring during the fight counts for anything, then it can be said that Jimmy Young beat Muhammad Ali (50-2), George Foreman (45-1), Ron Lyle (62-5-2), Earnie Shavers (88-6) and Ken Norton (39-4) a combined 284-18-2. Other than Muhammad Ali, no other heavyweight who fought during the 1970s beat as many top fighters as Jimmy Young. Go ahead and try to come up with another heavyweight from the 1970s, excluding Ali, who can say they bettered five fighters of that caliber in the ring.

    Not only did Jimmy Young not beat those five guys, he beat two of them, but those records are jacked. Lyle didn't have 65 wins. He had 30. And Shavers didn't have 88 wins. He had 46. And Young never beat Shavers.

    Someone could write a more convincing case for a lot of other contenders, both back then and today.

    Hell, Badou Jack has faced Anthony Dirrell, George Groves, Lucien Bute, James DeGale, Nathan Cleverly, Adonis Stevenson, Marcus Browne and Jean Pascal in his last eight consecutive fights, arguably deserved the decision in three of the four fights he didn't win, and fought like a lion and went the distance after suffering one of the worst cuts in boxing history ... and he's also one of the nicest guys around ... and he didn't quit or not care, or take the sport as a joke and come in fat, or lose to pugs like Pat Cuillo (which Young did) because one decision didn't go his way.

    I mean, enough of the sob stories. The Fantasy of Jimmy Young needs to stop already. He was a good contender for about three years. The other 18 years, he was "a guy" who lost about as much as he won and delivered one stinker after another.

    Hell, his fight with Ali was almost called off because Young looked atrocious in boring the pants off everyone in a decision over totally shot Joe "King" Roman on the Ali-Coopman undercard. That's why Ali didn't even bother to train for him.

    And Young's big win came when George Foreman was freaking hallucinating in the heat in San Juan and had to be hospitalized for heat exhaustion. And Young followed up that big triumph with a stinker against Jody Ballard (who Foreman had wiped out in a couple minutes) on national television on a night where you could make an argument Young wasn't even the third best heavyweight on the card that night. And Ballard was the easiest opponent of the night.

    He wasn't nearly as good as people are making him out to be. If he was, he wouldn't have been outboxed by guys like Pat Cuillo and Randy Neumann, who weren't exactly stylists.

    Nice guy. Put together a brief run. But enough already with Jimmy Young. There are plenty more "hard luck" fighters out there that people don't fawn over like they do this guy. People back in his prime didn't get this carried away with Young.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
  13. joebeadg

    joebeadg Well-Known Member Full Member

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    nice post about young, my all time fav. boxer. And I understand most people are not fans, they like bangers, aggressive guys. That's fine. People say he didn't win this fight, or that fight. But some people know better. No, he didn't get some decisions, but many kmow he avtually won the fights, we don't need some schmuck ringside with a pencil and pad to score our fights, we can do that ourselves.He definitely deserves to be in the hall, and his family deserves an apology from someone high up in the boxing community. He did get several chances after his best days, and he aquited himself well there too even though he lost a step or two. And he should have got the nod in some of those fights too. I'd like to see don queen or ssomeone step the f-ck up and reveal Jimmy Young deserved the title and got jobbed.
     
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  14. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    Very interesting run down of Jimmy. A fighter that, in all honesty I didn't pay a lot of attention to but I've learned a fair bit here. Thanks Philly.
     
  15. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I watched them both in their primes and on the way down.

    When all the "coulda, shoulda, woulda" excuses are said and done ... Jimmy Young was a smaller, weaker-punching, less motivated and arguably less-talented version of Buster Douglas.