Picture of Sonny Liston and Rocky Marciano

It's not Ali's fault there weren't top heavies as big as Vitali or Fury in his era but its just as valid to bring this up in critique of Ali as is the size of Marciano's opponents.

 

Ali beat men taller than himself, Terrell , no1 Wepner no9 over 200lbs.
And we have zero evidence of how Marciano would fare against a class ,prime heavyweight of 200lbs because he never faced one.

 

No it really isn't because there were 6foot plus heavyweights, 200lbs that were good men in his era that he did not face.

 

To be fair, @The Undefeated Lachbuster it was a good picture...

 

1 ) Valdes was old and didn't last long. He also said Liston put stuff on his gloves to burn his eyes.

2 ) DeJohn KO% is 52.54%, and from the looks of it did not stop one man who was ranked in the top ten at the time he fought him.

Liston's durability is untested in a mid to long fight vs ANY puncher.

 

This is your problem. If Layne fought Jack Johnson or Joe Louis, you tell us they were big men. But since Rocky fought them...AGENGA EXPOSED AND DOUBLE STANDARD AGAIN.

I would say Joe Louis at age 37, winner of 8 fights in the row, some of which were vs. ranked men is better than ANYONE Johnson beat in a title defense.

Layne was 34-1-2 when Rocky Ko'd him.

"Marciano hit Layne on the chin with an overhand right early in the sixth round. After a delayed reaction, Layne fell to the canvas face forward in a hunched position. Once he hit the canvas, he rolled over to his left side and was counted out. "

Sounds like a one punch KO from a guy you think lacked KO power.

 

I've never read that will you provide a primary source that states it?
Similarly Liston never was tested over 15 rounds the reason being he either stopped his opponents early ie Patterson or was stopped himself.ie Ali.
Was it Liston's fault the bigger punchers he fought couldn't take his power for long?
Who did Shavers stop who was ranked in the top ten? Mac Foster? Ron Lyle?Tommy Gomez?
It's a spurious argument because everyone knows they were big punchers.

 

Yes, Valdes complaining of burning eyes can be found in the film version of the 12 Greatest Rounds of Boxing by Ferdie Pacheco.

Like I aid Liston who busted up and cut very easily was never tested in the mid rounds vs punchers. Its true. The punchers he beat in Patterson and Williams were hardy durable people and didn't last. You could call Leotis Marin a solid puncher. What happened in that fight? Yes, while Liston was older. Martin Ko'd Liston badly. He was out for a minute.

I would not compare Williams to Shavers in power. Not a chance. Ali had some power and visibly rocked Liston.

Do you think the Joe Louis that Marciano beat was better than anyone that Jack Johnson beat in a title defense?

 

Nope I was responding to a poster who stated Layne was 200lbs when he fought Marciano,I simply pointed out he wasn't,he was 193lbs. Louis fought one ranked heavyweight in his 8 fights previous to Marciano.Lee Savold ,who was was washed up as he was.
Charlie Goldman ,who had matched his own fighter Cesar Brion against Layne noticed Layne was susceptible to body punishment and instructed Marciano to target the body to weaken Layne for the coup de grace later in the fight .
Rocky obeyed his intructions to the letter and scored an impressive ko ,,one that would not have been possible without the initial ,steady softening up process that proceeded it.

NB Last time I looked this thread was about Marciano and Liston,out of respect for the OP, please do not attempt to turn it into another Jack Johnson hate fest, we are all heartily fed up with your venomous crusade.

 

Liston busted up and cut very easily? Which fights show this?
Are you confusing him with Marciano?lol
The point I made, in rebuttal to your irrelevant one that DeJohn was not a big puncher because he never ko'd a ranked heavyweight was that Shavers ,Foster , Lyle, and Gomez never did either, yet they are universally recognized as very hard punchers.

Once again Jack Johnson is not relevant to this debate,if you want to make athread speculating how he would doagainst opponets of other fighters then do so this is not the place for it!

ps I never mentioned Williams.
In other words keep your irrational hatred for your own threads ,and don't attempt to hijack others with it!

 

Sounds like you haven't seen it...

 

Besides which, Billy Hunter, Alex Miteff and Charlie Powell were all top 10 ranked when stopped by DeJohn.

 

Sounds like horrible analysis.

 

I'd give Marciano the edge over Liston, Style wise its not as bad a matchup as people say it. Marciano had a mix of Swarmer and Slugger but people only give Marciano credit for his Swarmer style when in fact he put 100% of his power behind each punch, sounds a bit like a slugger. Thing about a Swarmer is there often in more of a crouch and is trying to wear his opponent down and then KO the other guy.

I couldn't really put slugger into terms into my mind so i turned to good old Wikipedia-
Brawler

If the out-fighter represents everything classy about boxing, the brawler (also known as the 'slugger', 'hard hitter' or 'one puncher') often stands for everything that's wrong with the sport. Sluggers tend to lack finesse in the ring, but make up for it in raw power, often able to knock almost any opponent out with a single punch. This ability makes them exciting to watch, and their fights unpredictable. Many brawlers tend to lack mobility in the ring and have difficulty pursuing fighters who are fast on their feet. They prefer the harder, slower punches (such as hooks and uppercuts) and tend to ignore combination punching. Their slowness and predictable punching patterns (single punches with obvious leads) often leaves them open for counterpunching.

Hmm the bold sounds like Marciano - but yet Sluggers oftne don't have the Stamina to go beyond at most 7 rounds without beginning to lose some edge- examples-George Foreman,Sonny Liston,and I believe Earnie Shavers as well.

So Marciano is hybrid between Slugger and Swarmer because he shows Many Slugger Attributes, and yet has the stance (somewhat) and Stamina of a Swarmer.

Any way getting back to what we were talking about, what they're doing is taking fighters from different periods in their careers and comparing them to Prime marciano, to be honest Prime to Prime I give Marciano a chance with anybody that ever fought, does that mean I think he could win against any fighter no. The reason I give Marciano the edge is because he had unmatched Heart, His stamina gave him the ability to go many many rounds throwing his best punches and taking punishment and still be fresh, and finally his punching power was great and in both hands. He had KO power in either hand.

I feel I've strayed from waht i was going to say- so I may end up posting again, I agree with many outcomes on that link (not all) but I don't agree with many of the things that lead up to the outcome.
That should basically sum it up.
Marciano has the advantage in strength, stamina, style, heart.

Rocky Marciano > Sonny Liston

Rocky Ko's Sonny 9

 

Oh just **** OFF