I'd take the much bigger, quicker, southpaw. Liston has a reputation of being almost invincible on message boards, but I was around a man years ago as a trainer who had fought Liston and talked about Liston as just another fighter. He didn't see Liston as a super man and I never got into all the hype. Liston looks like a good, solid fighter on video, but he never fought a 6-4, 240 pound southpaw like Ortiz. I wish this one could happen, I'd like to bet some of you.
I don’t know to be honest. Ortiz took some damn hard shots from Wilder and returned fire in spades in their first fight leading me to believe that Sonny isn’t just going to blast him out early the way some think. He’s also a south paw with fast hands and a fair amount of size in Sonny. Liston might be pulled out of his comfort zone on this one
What was the trainers name? Plenty have attested to Listons greatness. Some have said what you said (Ezzard Charles for example). But with great wins against Patterson x2 Nino Machen, Williams, Zora it’s hard to take your friends word for it when results speak for themselves. I def underrated Liston before coming to this forum but upon closer review he has some resume. Albeit he made a living beating up smaller men for the most part there were some bigger guys in there close to Ortiz size or bigger
IDK. Blond Ortiz never had his chin and stamina tested, so it’s hard to say. 40 year old Ortiz would gas out.
The trainer didn't say anything bad about Liston, he just didn't see him as a super man. Just another fighter. This guy fought a lot of "names" and he didn't consider any of them to be super men. Fighters know that fights are not always what you see. One guy might be training, the other might take the fight because he needs the money, one guy might be hiding a cut that he got sparring before the fight...there are lots of things that can happen. Sports writers and fans are usually more impressed with fighters than other fighters are. Resumes, HOF, ATG, ratings by the hero worshipers who ran The Ring, the crooks who run the sanctioning bodies etc. mean nothing to me. I like to see video of a fighter or talk to people in the gym. I'd take a person's word who has been in the gym any day over Nat Fleischer, Nat Loubet, Bert Sugar, Randy Gordon, Larry Merchant, etc. A guy that a reporter might think is unimpressive can be a feared fighter in the fight community. Ask people who have been in gyms around L.A. about Lateef Kayode, he lasted about a round with Ortiz, after hearing from people who "know", that tells me much about Ortiz. Same in reverse about a lot of "names." The same guy who fought Liston told me about training in NYC and that D'Amato would sometimes bring Patterson into the city to spar. He said he, and others always wanted to spar with Patterson, but D'Amato had non-threatening sparring lined up. He wouldn't let Patterson near them. I'll always take video and gym talk over anything I read. Guys like Roy Williams, Larry Middleton, and Jeff Merritt were probably never rated, who'd you rather fight, one of them or Eduardo Corletti? Guys like that probably never had a real training camp or time to prepare for a fight...
Patterson has an extensive resume of solid wins. Gym talk means nothing (can’t measure gym talk) results are everything.
Liston beat Patterson x2 Machen Williams x2 DeJohn Valdes Harris Summerlinx2 Besmanoff Zech Johnson Rischer Bethea Clark Lincoln Who are Ortiz's equivalent wins? 44years oldThompson ,gate keeper Scott, and fringe contender Jennings. If Ortiz is good, why hasn't he beaten anyone worth talking about? I don't take what I read, I take results in the ring!