Which of these ATGs survive the Shavers bomb in round 7?

Obviously the way you quoted the post makes it hard to respond. But Tyson got up TWICE in his entire career and went on to lose. Against Holyfield and arguably against Lewis (if you don't consider it a slip as the crooked referee called it). Every single one of his knockouts stemmed from punches far less devastating that this one so I think it's a stretch to say his chin is as good as Holmes.

 

Hard to argue with that. He did take plenty of bombs in his career though from some very big punchers.

 

I think the whole point of the discussion is shavers landing that picture perfect right at just the right time with the opponent's guard down, which is what happened to Larry. And Larry had some pretty damn amazing reflexes and a solid chin so all credit is due to shavers.

 

My personal ratings for tyson and Holmes

Chin

Tyson 8/10
Holmes 7/10

Recovery

Tyson 6/10
Holmes 9/10

Stamina

Tyson 7/10
Holmes 9/10

Tyson could take a solid shot better but once you did manage to crack his chin, it took him a while to recover. Holmes was rocked badly by a pretty young Witherspoon and Norton, both of whom are solid "good" punchers but not exactly devastating hitters. Tyson took some pretty brutal shots from Ruddock, Bruno, and wasn't wobbly. The men who kod him (Douglas, Lewis, etc) had to basically tee off on him and snap his head around like a speed bag.

Which brings me to my next point that the difference in styles is part of why Holmes was stopped less often (although the more difficult to measure unit of heart has something to do with it). Tyson had great head movement and speed but at the end of the day, he was still a stocky 5'10 guy with short arms and was almost always in range to get hit. Due to his size, his only 2 methods were seek and destroy or swarm and make his opponents pay with a pseudo counter punching style. Holmes had the luxury of being both taller with freakishly long arms and having good foot work and good head movement himself. He didnt get nailed as often as Tyson and you never saw anybody just unload and tee off on Holmes, but when he did get rocked he was very smart at survival tactics and getting out the way (clinching, footwork, covering up) and had better recovery than tyson.

Tyson's goal was always to knock you out, win a decision if that doesn't work. Holmes entered the ring intending to box and win rounds and knock you out only if the opportunity presented itself. Anyone whose mind set is to knock you out will get hit more often.

Conditioning is a huge factor too. Holmes was almost always in shape and Tyson slacked off when he really had no business doing so (with such a physically demanding and exhausting peak a boo style).

 

I voted Foreman, Liston and Tyson.

What I find amusing are the posters that assume all these guys would be dropped by the punch.

Holmes completely dropped his left hand when he was poleaxed.

I don't think Tyson or Liston would go down..

Foreman would go down but get up and survive, and then ko Shavers.

Holyfield would go down but get up and survive for awhile. It's possible he survives to win but more likely he stays hurt and his lack of defense allows Shavers to finish the job.

Frazier would go down but rise and trade toe to toe. Hed go down again and eventually be stopped.

Marciano and Louis wouldn't beat the count.

Lewis wouldn't come close to beating the count

Wlad would get up but be on spaghetti legs and the ref would stop it soon thereafter.

Ali is not on this list but he wouldn't be dropped by 1979 Shavers.

 

I'd rate his one shot KO power above everybody on this list.

 

Holyfield - all day, he’d be rocked badly but his chin and recuperative powers are top shelf.

Foreman - he drops or gets wobbled badly but he’ll get up. Doubt He gets stopped, he’ll wing back like vs Lyle.

Liston - takes it he was a beast, I don’t think he goes down.

Tyson - had an iron chin at his best, I’d say he takes it, I never saw him really hurt pre Douglas.

Frazier - goes down for sure, good luck keeping him there. Shavers isn’t a great finisher.

Louis - also down but I think he’d pull through, but he may get finished in that last 30 seconds. I’m like 70/30 he makes it.

 

I think Mike would have beat him, too, ko in the first four rounds (easy).

But he would have been done after that right (if Earnie landed it). He'd have gamely tried to get up, but he'd probably look like Berbick did against him, legs totally gone, floundering. Picking his mouthpiece back up.

Holyfield might have got up and of course I'd pick him to stop Earnie as well

...this might be an unpopular pick, but FOTC Joe Frazier would probably have got back up and then knocked the crap out of Shavers within the next three rounds...but he would have had to do a ton of holding after taking that shot. If Frazier got caught with two of those shots...but Earnie wasn't accurate that often, and Joe had the kind of defense that could have avoided another.

 

Most of those guys would not only survive but would likely stop Shavers well before he could land that punch. Who did Shavers ever beat that was anywhere near as good as any if those guys in their prime?

 

Agreed, except i don't think it would matter which version of Frazier. He was too brave for his own good and the last thing you want to do if Shavers drops you is try to take him out in the same round. And we know that's exactly what Frazier would do, he was no clincher. Unless shavers gasses out, he'd likely end it that same round or the following round.

 

Sensible post mate.

Holmes had a very good chin, not a great one. He was dropped and hurt numerous times. What he had was enormous will and heart and superb powers of recuperation tho to be fair he never had to recuperate against an ATG or renowned finisher excepting Tyson when he was well faded. He did recover against everyone he needed to in his first career however and did it well.

Renaldo Snipes dropped him very HARD too. Who did Snipes ever KO with one shot? Who did Snipes ever KO at all? Do we assume that the Snipes punch would have put some of these guys to sleep? Do we even think they'd all be dropped by it?

The Snipes knockdown isn't so much a knock on Holmes chin as it is a statement that when these big boys get together strange things can happen. They are big powerful men. Holmes himself has said similar as have so many others. Look what happened to Lewis against Rahman. You snooze you lose - you have to bring your A game all the time.


It was a big big punch from Shavers but true one punch knockouts are incredibly rare, particularly against ATG's like Holmes.

 

It's a good question. Another one is, how many of those mentioned actually stop Shavers before round 7??

 

I think it's been said that that's not the point before, Fergs. I know it was my first thought that Shavers doesn't see 7 against Foreman, Liston or Tyson. I imagine the point is to measure the calibre of their mandibles(as in can they take that like Holmes did) rather than can they beat Ernie.

 

Yep all good George. Some guys on that list get possibly get him about long before seven, Tyson and Foreman imo could do. But even then may have to be tested by big Earns shots. Foreman may be wobbled, even knocked down, in a lyle type war. Tyson, imo had be beaten up over a distance before he went down, he had a solid chin. But we may get a scenario like Bruno 1, where he's briefly rocked.
But that actual punch from Shavers against Larry! A good few end up in la la land. One I'll say that could be in bother is Joe Louis. Down against Braddock and Galento, what does that shot from Shavers do!?

 

I was thinking a Lyle type of war between prime for prime George and Mike, too, with Mike's suspect heart coming into play. George and Mike probably both go down, but Mike never had enough heart to come roaring back after a knockdown, so once Mike goes down in 3 he's finished.

FWIW, I do think prime Mike could have beaten the early comeback George (80s), but Mike and George from 91 to 95 would have taken seen Foreman take a few staggering shots but then stopped Mike in 8 rounds max.

I have asked around, and Mike truly was a little afraid of George (the "...animal!" exclamation itself is of questionable validity, but there are a couple of people who were around Mike in the late 80s and early 90s who verified his misgivings about GF to me) . That in itself would help beat him, just as it did against a surly, mean, and determined looking Holyfield in that second fight.

It says a lot that, despite the massive revenue that would have been generated by a George/Mike fight in the early 90s, it never happened. It would have been enough money for both men to permanently retire.