Manny Pacquiao has never been as good at any weight class as Bernard Hopkins at middleweight?

I have already answered your question.

Stop being ignorant.

Yes, it's a very, very rare thing to do.

Again, Manny is one of the greatest fighters of all time. But if you didn't see an issue at the weigh-in, and you didn't see an issue with his fight night weight, then you clearly weren't familiar with Oscar's career.

Manny didn't beat the versions of Oscar who fought Mayorga and Floyd, let alone the version that fought Bernard. So although your original statement was true, it doesn't mean anything.

Most people think that GG beat Canelo the first time. So let's say he'd have been awarded the victory. You could have come on here and said:

"A former SFW (Floyd) beat Canelo easier than what GG did"

So what.

 

No, you didn't answer my question. Only by refusing to answer have you made it clear that you couldn't and didn't predict that Manny would dominate Oscar. But after it has happened you pretend like it was a given all along. That doesn't impress me.

And, yes, I also think Floyd's win over Canelo is hugely impressive and I think that gets undersold too.

I think both Pac's and Floyd's achievements will just continue to look better as even more time passes without anyone coming close to duplicating them.

 

Good post, but Bernard doesn't have any argument to be classed as an ATG LHW. And he never took the risks that Manny took in his prime.

 

On stupid phone so can't make a post as long and in depth as I want.

First, this thread was originally started regarding h2h (which in my rush to give my thoughts I missed). However, regarding your points on Marquez winning all 4, I definitely disagree, though it is arguable. Quite a few of us, including me, gave scorecatds for the trilogy in the scorecard thread. I'd be interested to see yours.

Anyway, onto the point. I don't begrudge anyone picking Hopkins over Pac in a h2h sense. It's close and arguable. Regarding things like ring iq and generalship, I'd still give it to Hopkins, but it's not as far out as some would think, especially with an older and evolved Pac who picks his spots masterfully.
In terms of physical attributes, Pac is a clear winner. His speed, explosive power and movement is just crazy around the 130 lbs mark. I don't think Hopkins height and size really comparable, especially when considering Pac's showings at 147. Saying Pac loses to every defensive technician is a a gross overstement.

When you say if there is an argument if Pac is top 5 h2h in any weight class, he has a very strong argument for 130lbs. His physical presence and speed was simply overwhelming, and it would take great fighters like Elorde or Canzoneri to really overcome it.

 

Another ignorant post.

The weigh-in was the NEW INFORMATION.

He looked ill.

I couldn't believe how bad he looked.

Then after 15 years of rehydrating by up to a stone, we found out that he only rehydrated by 2 pounds.

His rehydration weight was also NEW INFORMATION.

Alarm bells were ringing.

Yes, when the contract was signed, I didn't expect an EASY win for Manny. But as we learned new things, my mind started to change.

The reason that I didn't offer my concerns on here at the time, is because I didn't become a member until 2012.

 

Some context to the 'former featherweight' thing. Pacquaio was a massive weight drainer and rehydrated to 140lbs at 126 though, where as MAB fought at the weight he weighed. So in actual fact Pacquaio was the bigger man of the two. Not that would of necessarily changed the result. Pacquaio was always the bigger man up until he fought DLH.

Pacquaio came in the ring slightly less than what Mayweather weighed against DLH because that was his natural weight. It's like saying DLH was a former SFW, it doesn't reflect the real weight of the man at the time. Especially when Pacquaio and DLH are weighing pretty much the same weight in the ring.

Some context to the DLH win. DLH hadn't made 147 in 7 years. He starved himself down to 145 and only rehydrated back to 147 I believe. DLH when he was a welterweight rehdyrated to 160 so you know he's weaknened himself. You remember Roy Jones starving himself down from heavyweight to 175 and looking dead at the weight? It's the same thing

Also ask yourself why DLH is cherry picking Pacquaio when a Vernon Forrest championship fight is available at 154. Vernon joked at the time 'can I fight Marquez' because it was seen as cynical. Roach said DLH wasn't doing the roadwork etc that he should be doing when he trained him. And Steve Forbes, a 140lb contender who was the same size as Manny busted up Oscars face in the fight prior to Pacquaio.

It was a very good performance against an old drained fighter.

 

How I have refused to answer, genius?

I have answered you THREE times.

You are completely ignorant.

Okay, so most people never thought that Manny could have beaten Oscar so easily.

Fine.

No problem.

Now kindly answer the following questions:

Do you think Oscar made the weight healthily?

Do you think he was faded?

Do you think Oscar was the same fighter he'd been against Hopkins?

 

Great post.

 

No, you haven't once admitted that you failed to predict the outcome even after the weigh-in. This has become clear only by omission to answer a direct question.

Do I believe Oscar made weight healthily? Yes, I have no reason to believe otherwise. He looked fine in the ring. It could be that it wasn't the best idea to cut down to 147, but he knew his body much, much better than any of us so I see no reason to second guess him. And he didn't look weak in there. Just that Pac looked much faster, just as he did against everyone.

And it has never been in question that Oscar faded from 2004 to 2008, only that this fades in comparison to that Pac won his first title at friggin 112 and Hopkins at 160 and Pac still beat Oscar in more dominant fashion.

 

No. Pac came in at 136 lbs and Barrera at 133 lbs for their first fight. So he wasn't 140 and MAB wasn't 126.

 

Saying Pacquiao was a huge weight drainer and was always the bigger man until he fought Oscar is complete nonsense. Some fight night weights for you: (you can see all these on youtube if you don’t believe me).
vs Ledwaba @ 122. Pac 131, Ledwaba 135
vs Julio @ 122. Pac 129, Julio 130
vs Sanchez @ 122. Pac 132, Sanchez 134
vs Barrera @ 126. Pac 136, Barrera 133
vs Lucero @ 126. Pac 135, Lucero 134
vs Morales I @ 130. Pac 139, Morales 140
vs Morales II @ 130. Pac 140, Morales 140
vs Velasquez @ 130. Pac 140, Velas 140
vs Diaz @ 135. Pac 147, Diaz 148
Couldn’t find the weights for the Marquez fights but they were most likely the same size.
So as you can see most of the time Pacquiao was the smaller man or the same size. He was only bigger than Barrera by 3lbs and Lucero by 1lb. Next time maybe you should actually check the facts before you make stupid statements that can be easily disproved. How’s that for some context?

 

As have been pointed out to you, this is just plain wrong.

No, but he had made 150 the fight before. And he won just about every round in that fight.

Obviously he set the contracted weight at 150 for a reason, and it likely wasn't because 150 was difficult for him to make.

Because he, like most, believed it would be easy money. That's the whole point.

 

Pacquiao won his first title at 112 actually, beat Sasakul to become WBC and lineal flyweight champion

 

I meant 112. Just a typo. Will correct.

 

I have told you numerous times.

I didn't think that Manny would easily beat him when the fight was signed. But again, I never saw it as a mismatch based on the Forbes fight.

If you'd have asked me after the Mayorga or Floyd fight, I'd have made Oscar a huge favourite.

At the time of the signing, I picked Oscar, but I wasn't confident. But once I saw him at the weigh-in and I knew his rehydration weight, I changed my mind.

What do you mean you have no reason not to believe otherwise?

He looked visibly ill at the weigh-in.

He looked gaunt.

You've already been told by me and another poster that he used to rehydrate by up to a stone in every one of his fights. And he'd done that for 15 years. Yet against Manny, he only rehydrated by TWO pounds, despite weighing in at 147 for the first time in SEVEN years.

Now if you didn't find an issue with any of the above, then you're either:

1. Ignorant.

2. A guy who possesses no knowledge of Oscar's career.

3. A casual fan of the sport.

If you don't think it's ever been in question that Oscar faded after the Hopkins fight, then what was the point in making your original statement??

Again, although your statement is true, it's completely meaningless.

It has no relevance.

It's simply not needed to celebrate Manny's greatness.