I used to think this. Except I watched it the other day and he did the theatrics, where he started to get up and fell over again
The punch really did knock him down, he decided to stay down (I think) because he didn't have the heart to fight him and just wanted his paycheck. Mob connections are likely too tho
It was not "100% a legitimate flash knock down" you can debate it either way. I personally don't think the KD was legitimate at all but you can certainly argue vice versa.
We've been over this many times before in other threads. I disagree with this threadmaster's underlying assumption that the fight was fixed For what it's worth here's my take from a prior thread: "Re Ali-Liston II, I don't know about Sonny's feet, but the film shows the back of his neck flexing from Ali's punch, which to me is consistent with a solid blow to the chin. Consequently, I really have never questioned the legitimacy of the knockdown or what I perceive to be fact that both fighters were engaged in honest combat. In addition, if I remember correctly, by the time referee Walcott returned his attention to the action following Ali's hysterics, Liston was up and ready to fight, thus belying any intention on his part to quit. "What I do question is the legitimacy of the count and the stoppage of the fight by Walcott. Two things stick out to me in this regard. First, Ali didn't go to a neutral corner so the count should not have started until he did, ala Dempsey-Tunney II. On this basis alone, Walcott should not have held Liston accountable for the time Ali was clowning. "Secondly and more importantly, apart from the neutral corner issue, Walcott never did even START TO COUNT over Liston! So how was Sonny to know when to get up? If Walcott had been there counting like he should have been, Sonny very well may have risen within 10 seconds. But since there was no count, why should he have been expected to get up at all? To me, a fighter has a right to rely on the referee to tell him what the count is. The situation is similar to the brouhah about the knockdown of Douglas in the Tyson-Douglas fight. "The referee is supposed to get his information about the timing of the count from the official timekeeper. In this case, the person who notified Walcott that Sonny had been down for more than 20 seconds was the busybody Nat Fleischer who was just a bystander with no legal status in regard to the fight. Walcott should not have listened to him. Instead, he should have allowed the fight to continue. Ali should have been forced to pay the price for his antics in the ring after the knockdown by having the start of the count delayed. Instead, Liston had to unfairly pay the price for Ali's misconduct by having the fight stopped without receiving the courtesy of a count. Liston was NEVER OFFICIALLY COUNTED OUT. Walcott just arbitrarily stopped the fight on the word of Fleischer. "In retrospect, since we cannot now go back and resume the fight where it left off, the record books should be changed to rule the fight "NO CONTEST." I write this somewhat facetiously since I know this will never happen. But the fight was mishandled by Walcott, and in fairness Liston should have been allowed to continue. I doubt that the outcome would have changed, but stranger things have happened. "Another point: Ali-Liston II was originally scheduled to take place in February, I think it was, but it was postponed for three months due to Ali's emergency hernia surgery. At the time of the last-minute postponement, Liston had trained hard for the rematch and was in the best condition of his life. As I recall, he was a trim 212 pounds. I think mentally he was charged up to redeem himself after the first fight. "The postponement changed all this. It was a tremendous letdown for Liston. He had reached the point of his career where training was hard work and unpleasant for him. He had forced himself to do it once, but he just did not have the will to do it again. He was demoralized. I think that if the fight had taken place on the original date, it would have been a humdinger. I don't know that Liston would have won, but I think he would have made a good show."
Yes, I think that could just be Sonny losing interest at that point. There were theatrics, Sonny started to get up then rolled over again perhaps because Ali was still running about like an idiot at the time, and Sonny still hadn’t got a count? This is as probable as anything else. Sometimes the thing you see is the hardest thing to believe. He took quite a beating the last time. The lay off suited Clay better than it suited Sonny. I think at that point Liston knew he couldn’t win. The flash knockdown proved it. The count was bunggled because of Ali’s antics. Sonny did get up. A more conclusive ending was just moments away had the fight continued.
Here's a prior post from Longhorn71 followed by my response to it. Longhhorn71 said: ↑ Ali v Liston 2 LA Times article (some good info) http://articles.latimes.com/1990-05-25/sports/sp-253_1_sonny-liston http://articles.latimes.com/1990-05-25/sports/sp-253_1_sonny-liston/2 Extra: https://www.si.com/boxing/2015/09/24/muhammad-ali-sonny-liston-ii-phantom-punch Example: "Many people," Kram reported, "failed to see the short, fast right to the jaw that nailed Liston, and among them were numerous reporters. . . . (There is) no shred of evidence or plausibility to support the suggestion that this was anything but an honest fight. "The knockout punch itself was thrown with the amazing speed that makes Clay different from any other heavyweight. He leaned away from one of Liston's pawing, ponderous jabs, planted himself solidly and whipped his right arm over Liston's left arm and into the side of Liston's jaw." Kram also reported that Amos Lincoln, a sparring partner of Liston's, had been "carefully coached" to be "well battered" at Liston's Poland Spring Hotel camp in the days before the fight. For several weeks before that, he had routinely connected with Liston's head with right crosses, according to Kram. Wrote the New York Times' Arthur Daley of the knockout punch: "The punch looked good, but not great. Certainly, it didn't appear thunderous enough to fell the oak-thewed Sonny." Daley also commented on a report in a Boston newspaper afterward that Lincoln had been paid an extra $100 to let Liston batter him in final sparring sessions. "He gave Lincoln a pretty good thumping, but his camp followers were not misled," Daley wrote. "They knew in their hearts the old man didn't have it any more." My (KasimirKid's) response: "This has always pretty much been my take on the fight. To me, Liston's neck flexed noticeably on impact. If we had the camera angles we enjoy with today's technology, I think we would have seen a short, quick punch that landed flush. "According to the LA Times article cited first, Jim Murray, the esteemed columnist who carried no torch for either fighter, had a better angle than the camera. Murray said, "I saw the punch, and it was a good one. But the point is, Sonny was old and out of shape--I don't think he could've beaten a 10 count if he'd tripped over his shoelaces." "I like Angelo's observation in that LA Times article, too: "He got him with a solid punch. Look at the film. Sonny's left foot jumps off the canvas just as Ali hits him. It was a flash right hand. Ali hurt a lot of guys with it. And he (Ali) was not backing up when he hit him, like so many guys wrote. He was sliding laterally. One thing about boxing, it's the shots you never see that hurt you the most." "I encourage doubters to look at the film, and to look at Sonny's neck and left foot when the punch lands. "The Sports Illustrated article is right on, a great analysis. "I know I'm in the minority here based on previous threads to this forum which I have read, one to which I have contributed. We'll never know for sure, but for me it's nice to see some respected sources which agree with me."
The other way we could respond to the original question is: what would have happened if the fight had continued? Does anybody think it would have ended except with the bear on the floor?
Maybe so, but my response to that is that Liston was up and ready to go without a count. Walcott never counted over him. If he was legitimately knocked down , as I continue to contend, and befuddled as a person may become when he is hit by a hard punch, it is hardly likely that he would have had the presence of mind to fully comprehend what was going on like we arm-chair analysts think we have been doing for the past 55 years of watching this film since the fight took place.
There was a movie on Net Flix a few years back starring Ving Rahmes as Sonny, called The Phantom Punch. Liston was having an affair on his wife Geraldine. Co- starring is the actress, Bridgette Wilson, who played his mistress, it was illegal back then to have intimate relations with someone from another race, especially if you were African-American, transporting them across the border of another state for Immoral purposes,The Mann Act. I do not think as well that the underworld would have wanted that kind of attention, especially if they were connected to Sonny.
Not sure how relevant it is but it was Ring Editor Nat Fleischer who shouted up " Joe, the fight is over ". Fleischer had a pathological hatred of Liston.
For what it's worth, Liston's biographer Paul Gallender claimed the fight was thrown because the Nation of Islam had taken his wife and child hostage.
