Pep above Charles/Langford? Reasoning? Again, like I asked Gudetama, how come Leonard/Gans are so high?
Leonard is the greatest lightweight of all time and was probably the greatest fighter of his era (alongside Greb). He was also arguably the best fighter who had ever lived before Sugar Ray Robinson came along. It probably goes Gans, Leonard and then Sugar Ray Robinson in terms of p4p lineage and stylistic progression of the sport. Pep at 3? Yeah, I know it's high but he is probably the second greatest fighter in any weight division in terms of clear dominance (after Sugar Ray Robinson at welterweight). The guy didn't lose a single fight in his first 8 years as a pro in that weight class. I do have a tendency (rightly or wrongly) to rate dominant title reigns - it's no accident that Pep, Louis and Benny Leonard are all so high because of it. Charles was arguably the 4th best of his era, behind Robinson, Pep and Louis. Those guys were the colossuses of the sport. He was also less consistent than they were (although he had his impressive win streaks) and consistency is something that I also place a lot of value in. It's hard to turn up and deliver night after night and that is something that Robinson, Pep and Louis all did better than Charles in my view. Langford is arguably the no. 1 weight jumper in history, fighting anywhere from Welterweight to Heavyweight. His resume is suitably deep and he deserves huge credit for being a fighter who took on every challenge - that's a rare, rare thing and he did that better than almost anyone. But I see the guys above him as largely being a little more special than him. If you're in the top 20 of all time, you're all ready the best of the best. To narrow it down to 10 is almost the toss of coin, really...
Leonard’s era was the best ever at lightweight and he was dominant. He only stopped because of a promise to his mother. He’d have reigned for longer. He is about as far ahead of his time as any fighter ever.
1. Sugar Ray Robinson 174 (109) - 19 - 6 2. Muhammad Ali 56 (37) - 5 3. Henry Armstrong 152 (101) - 22 - 9 4. Harry Greb 107 (46) - 8 - 3 5. Roberto Duran 103 (70) - 16 6. Archie Moore 186 (132) - 23 - 10 7. Ezzard Charles 95 (52) - 25 - 1 8. Joe Louis 66 (52) - 3 9. Sugar Ray Leonard 36 (25) - 3 - 1 10. Sam Langford 178 (128) - 29 - 38 I’ll give the episode a listen
These are the names I have in my top 20, just by weight instead of ordered. Muhammad Ali Joe Louis Sam Langford Ezzard Charles Archie Moore Tommy Loughran Harry Greb Bob Fitzsimmons Sugar Ray Robinson Ray Leonard Mickey Walker Jimmy McLarnin Barney Ross Henry Armstrong Roberto Durán Packey McFarland Benny Leonard Tony Canzoneri Willie Pep Jimmy Wilde
Just picking up on the podcast discussion and the view that Benny Leonard is not top 10 p4p. For those of you who don't think he is, if he hadn't deliberately DQ'ed himself against Jack Britton would that change your minds?
But he already beat Britton? Twice? Should he have gotten the nod vs Lewis, which is apparently the genuinely accepted view at the time. He'd be a lock if he beat McLarnin. I'm not completely against it, I have him at #15. That said, his competition at LW was amazing and he was fairly consistent in his prime. My main issue he accomplished everything, for the most part, at one weight. That goes against the idea of P4P in my eyes.
Yes, on newspaper decisions. The third fight with Britton was crucially for the welterweight title. That would have made him a two-weight champ, hence the question.
I thought title fights were done on newspaper decisions anyway? And to put it bluntly, no. Since he'd already beaten Britton, the win isn't as impressive as a fresh new scalp like Lewis. That said, if he got the nod and beat Britton for that title I'd say he's higher but not yet top 10. The two I have at #11&12 are pretty hard to top and don't think Benny does it.
1. Robinson 2. Greb 3. Langford 4. Armstrong These are the four pillars, and they're pretty much interchangeable 5. Charles 6. Ali 7. Louis 8. Duran 9. R. Leonard 10. Fitzimmons Worthy of consideration: Moore Walker B. Leonard Pep Gans Dixon McGovern McFarland Whitaker
