The Official "Bill Brennan Appreciation Thread"

He was ranked #2 by Ring Magazine.

I would say that qualifies in any era!

 

I was trying to be funny with my answer. But seriously, Gibbons' resume as a leading heavyweight contender was pretty thin, but then so was everybody else's if you are looking at white heavyweights. I think at the time there weren't very many many of them around, and just like ever other white heavyweight, he was only fighting whites at the time. That's not intended so much as a slam against Gibbons alone as against all of them. The top white contenders weren't fighting the top black heavyweights then, so why expect Gibbons to be any different?

His biggest victory against a true heavyweight was undoubtedly against Miske in St. Paul on December 15, 1922. Of course, we now understand that Miske was ill during this time and I question what kind of shape he was in since it was his third to last fight and his weight at 196 was more than he ever weighed for any other fight. Other wins against true heavyweights were against guys like Porky Flynn, Willie Meehan, Clay Turner, Hugh Walker, and Bartley Madden, none of whom had sterling records, but at least they were true heavyweights who had won more fights than they had lost. Guys like Chuck Wiggins might be considered good wins, but at 178 he wasn't a true heavyweight then though he might have been considered so at the time by the public considering the dearth of good white fighters in the division.

I've been trying to stay out of the Dempsey threads, but you suckered me into this, Seamus, so I might as well enter the fray. The acceptable (white) heavyweights at the time weren't very good, so Dempsey feasted on light heavys like Carpentier and Gibbons. His most impressive win while champion was the Brennan fight, who was the only really capable heavyweight he fought during his title reign. Firpo was a heavyweight with a numerical record, but he was a set-up who wasn't very skilled groomed by Rickard . The weakness in the division is the reason old-man Willard's comeback was taken seriously at the time. It's also the reason that through hindsight so many contributors to threads like this keep bringing up Greb's name as a person Dempsey avoided even though Harry was still making the middleweight limit. There just weren't that many white people around who qualified as real challengers.

It also weakens, in my mind, the case for Dempsey as a truly great fighting champion. It would be one thing if he never fought Wills because he was a busy champion and there were a lot of other qualified contenders around, but it is quite another thing to avoid the leading contender for three or four years because he was black. This is the case whether you think Dempsey could beat Wills or not. Dempsey deserves no slack here, in my opinion.

Dempsey was an icon and his personality and aggressive style caught the imagination of people both at the time and afterward, but he was by no means a great champion when compared with others who cleaned up their divisions like Louis, Charles, Marciano, Ali, Holmes, and Tyson. After that, I admit I lose track.

Addendum: to the above list of worthy champions I should also add Frazier and Foreman (1st reign), who also took on the top men of the division and were dominant for a time.

 

Again, who did he beat to get this ranking. What was his heavyweight pedigree? Did he ever beat a decent heavyweight in his career?

 

He held this position in the first ever Ring Magazine Rankings, so it is hard to be sure what their reasoning was. In the previous year he had beaten Carpintier, Bloomfiled, and Norfolk, so a decent winning streak.

Billy Miske and Kid Norfolk were both good scalps at heavyweight.

 

Just on Brennan, here is his record according to boxrec

total fights 103. Wins 77 losses 18 draws 8 KO's 49
So his winning percentage is 75% and his KO percentage is 48%

Who would I could consider comps among contenders over the years.

Red Burman (of Joe Louis' bum of the month club)

total fights 103. Wins 78 losses 22 draws 3 KO's 33
His winning percentage was 76% and his KO percentage 32%
Burman was below the average of Louis challengers, but I think was a better contender than Brennan, with wins over Tommy Farr, Gus Dorazio, Eddie Blunt, Al Hart, and Buddy Walker. Unlike Brennan, he did not draw the color line, fighting Louis, J H Lewis, Alberto Lovell, Blunt, Hart, and Walker among others. Only edge for Brennan is KO percentage, but against weaker competition.

Don C-ckell (probably Marciano's weakest challenger)

Total fights 81. Wins 66 losses 14 draws 1 KO's 38
His winning percentage was 81% and his KO percentage 47%
Don C stacks up well stat wise with Brennan. I think on balance he fought better competition and had more worthy wins.

Roy Harris (generally considered a pushover opponent for Patterson)

Total fights 36. Wins 30 losses 5 1 ND KO's 9
Winning percentage was 86% and his KO percentage 25%
Brennan has a power advantage over Harris, but Harris only lost to champs and top five men, and I think his victims a more impressive bunch than Brennan's victims.

I picked these guys because they are at best average to somewhat below average contenders. Their records and credentials though match or exceed Brennan's. There have certainly been worse heavyweight title challengers than Brennan, but it is being kind to even consider him rising to the level of an average challenger in the long run of heavyweight championship history.

 

Bloomfield, Norfolk, and Carpentier may have fought heavyweights, but they weren't heavyweights themselves. They all fought under the light-heavyweight limit. Also, in my prior posting to this thread, I was interpreting Seamus to be asking who Gibbons had beaten to deserve the title shot against Dempsey. Either way, however, whether before or after Gibbons fought Dempsey, there were hardly any quality heavyweights around while Gibbons was actively seeking the heavyweight title, especially if you eliminate black fighters like Harry Wills.

 

I agree that the white fighters were thin, but Gibbons also didn't fight most of the white heavyweights who were out there--Weinert, Renault, Spalla, Firpo, Brennan, Fulton, Martin, Floyd Johnson etc. The only guy who seems to have been a leading contender he fought was Miske, and as was said, it is hard to tell with Miske suffering from a fatal illness, how much he had left.

Besides the color line, there seems to have been a light-heavyweight-heavyweight line with some fighting the big fellows and some getting to be challengers by sticking with the smaller men.

 

Point taken, but the quality of those listed and the timing of their career peaks with respect to Gibbons career is debatable

 

Here's how Brennan was described in The New York Times the morning of his title fight with Dempsey.

The Chicagoan has never been regarded any higher than the station of a good second-rater. His most dangerous rival, as revealed by the records, appears to have been Billy Miske, over whom Brennan gained two decisions. He boxed a draw with Battling Levinsky. His knockout victims include none of imposing reputation. Some of the boxers whom Brennan engaged in no-decision bouts are Jim Coffey, whose only attribute was as a victim of Frank Moran; Tom Cowler, an inferior British heavyweight; Bartley Madden of the west side, Harry Greb of Pittsburgh, and Willie Meehan, the rotund Frisco heavyweight.

 

I do not see this as being important, particularly in an era where it was common for light heavyweights to fight at heavyweight.

If a fighter is legitimately a key player in the heavyweight division, it doesn't particularly matter what they weigh.

Kid Norfolk for example had previously fought a title eliminator against Harry Wills, so he was a key player int he division.

A win over him would advance your standing, and improve your credentials, specifically within the heavyweight class.

 

As was their god given right.

 

Yes, I mostly brought up the lack of real heavyweights to show how weak the division was during Dempsey's reign, making it particularly difficult to rate him very high in the so-called pantheon of heavyweight champions, especially when there was a willing contender available in the person of Harry Wills. I admit my posts have been a bit off the point of this thread. I guess something about the thread unleashed my feelings about Dempsey's place in boxing history and I chose to use it as an opportunity to vent.

Getting back to the main point of the thread, I guess my only contribution would be to offer my opinion that Bill Brennan was the most worthy bonafide heavyweight challenger that Dempsey fought during his title reign up until the first Tunney fight. Consequently, I've always thought that watching the film of their fight provides the best gauge of Dempsey's abilities during his prime years.

Dubblechin's New York Times article only underscores how weak the division was.

 

The people from a number of American Legion posts in Montana did business with Minnesota boxing people during the early 1920s. That is one reason why Tommy Gibbons, a boxer from Minnesota was able to get a world heavyweight title shot in a bout with the reigning champion, Jack Dempsey, in an American Legion-promoted bout in Shelby, Montana during 1923. This was despite the fact that Gibbons was clearly beaten by Harry Greb in a bout during 1923.

One other little nugget is that Loy Molumby, a prominent figure in the Shelby promotion, was an avowed racist who regularly used the "N" word. As a result, I doubt if he would have been in favor of having Harry Wills fighting Dempsey in a title bout in Shelby, even if Jack Kearns, Dempsey's manager, agreed to it. Come to think of it, would Wills have agreed to fight Dempsey for free?

- Chuck Johnston