Was Mike Tyson out of prime or was it the step up in competition.

He was in his physical prime vs Douglas. Douglas fought a great fight and Tyson used the wrong tactics. Tyson was looking for a one punch knock out.

To be fair, Douglas was a massive underachiever. I think Tyson's loss to him looks embarrassing because Douglas did virtually nothing after this and not too much prior to this fight.

However, that version of Douglas would give Tyson a hard fight even vs the best version of Tyson.

No, I don't think he was out of his prime vs Douglas. He was unfocused and tactically wrong, sure, but still prime.

He was out of his prime vs Holyfield. King fed him tomato cans after he returned from prison which lead people to think he was still the Tyson of old. He wasn't.

 

He was already showing mistakes against Holmes, Tubbs and Spinks he wouldn't of usually shown. And MANY against Bruno. The out of ring stresses got him.

He looked softer, flabbier, slower etc against Douglas and his musculature less dense. He clearly wasn't training or living right.

 

I personally believe that the word prime is wrong. Mike was not out of his prime he just didn’t have the fire for it anymore.

My father got too fat to sit in one plane seat so when he travelled he had to buy two for himself and it was embarrassing. So he went on a diet with a goal in mind. Once he reached the goal and could fit comfortably into one seat he stopped losing weight even though he was still chubby. He had no desire to do it anymore.

Tyson and Cus D’Amato talked about him becoming the youngest champion ever. That was the goal. When he did that, after Cus died he and Jimmy Jacobs then created a new goal of holding all three major belts. When he did that Jimmy Jacobs died and he had no more goals. Nothing new and challenging to motivate him.

Tyson was like a machine. If you keep the machine in use, Maintain it well and make sure nothing gets stuck in the gears it works well. If you don’t, the machine breaks down. Once the people who maintained the machine Tyson were gone or dead, it broke.

 

I would agree Tyson was on the down pretty early. He really did suffer after that snake Don King tore him away from his support circle. Numerous scribes including Eddie Futch noted that he had already begun a type of decline.

Tyson was fragile mentally and needed a lot of things in place to prosper. Post Rooney his game started to drop but he was still good enough to pole axe most. The ridiculous marriage, too much money, too much distraction, he couldn't and didn't handle it.

Having said all that i stay well away from the silly notion he would have beat anyone at his best brigade. Even if he'd stayed 100% disciplined he still had Evander Holyfield to deal with and who knows how that would have went. Sure at the time things might have been different with a peak Tyson and a younger Holyfield but i would not like to put money on it. Holyfield at any stage loved those deep deep moments in a fight Tyson not so much.

Tyson's problems were that he was one dimensional and predictable with no plan B and little adaptability. He could not fight going backwards and being consistently backed up. His pressure was also different from the relentlessness of a Frazier or Marciano in that it was often more of a charge which could be offset in ways by someone great enough.

Even so they all have their weaknesses and not many across history would be able to survive him. He burned quite bright but not for a big length of time. He was still a damn dangerous fighter for a long time and even late in the piece took some beating.

 

This is one of the best analogies I've seen for Tyson. He was one of those athletes who suffered from early success and lacking a driving force to direct him. Tyson would have inevitably been in prison or dead without his team. The fact his life sprung out of control even after all that mentoring is proof of his mental weakness. A cautionary tale.

 

Tyson was only 23 when he lost to Douglas. Mike was champ young, lost his title young. He had regressed as champ and lost his edge before he was sent to prison. The bouts later in 1990 and 1991 showed that. Then prison. That will have taken an extra toll. He was out of his prime when he met Holyfield, but maybe Holyfield always beats him. Tyson was still dangerous for anyone, but not the same.

 

He himself has named the fight against Holmes his best performance and I can see why. Personally I think Holmes, Tubbs and Spinks were his absolute peak fights (and what mistakes did he make against Spinks?).

What better performances did he have? Berbick and Biggs were also very hard to improve upon, but others?

 

It's a combination of both. He definitely declined at the start of new decade, but he also faced better fighters than in 1980s. You can't find Holyfield or Lewis on his 1980s resume.

 

Thomas and Biggs were his peak fights. Thomas his best one, pre-Givens.

 

I think “prime Tyson” is one of the most overused myths in boxing. He was a great fighter but he wasn’t in the all-time class ever. No amount of excuses can change that. He did benefit from his era because if he comes around 5 years earlier or later he’d never win the title. I say this as a fan of him as a fighter and a person but I think he’s far too over romanticized.

 

Really? You don't think a prime Tyson could have won a belt 5 years earlier over one of the mid 80's fighters such as weaver, Tubbs, or Thomas (who he actually beat)? Witherspoon would have been a good matchup too no way you can write Tyson off. A prime Holmes would have been a very difficult task but not impossible, Tyson had some stylistic advantages.

5 years later he definitely could have won a belt from Morrison or Moore.

 

I mean in terms of being the #1 guy the true champion. No, I can’t see him beating a not old and rusty, fat Holmes or Holyfield or Bowe.

 

That's fair. Tyson himself admitted Holmes would have been a very difficult fight or that he could have lost to prime Holmes. I feel like Holyfield would have always won. Prime undisputed Bowe is a 50/50 fight in my opinion but Bowe's uppercuts, jab and inside fighting would be very difficult for Tyson to overcome since very few people dared to bring the fight to Tyson and he had the chin and aggression to pull it off.

 

He certainly regressed after Rooney was kicked to the curb. Against Douglas, he was not physically out of his prime. But his level and quality of training , as well has his focus was not what it had been under Rooney.

When he fought Holyfield, he was past his prime. The four years in jail didn't do him any favors, boxing wise.