I think Heenan beats the snot out of Big George in a similar way to how an MMA fighter would beat a pure boxer up (though I'm not sure if grappling was employed on the ground upon a takedown), from what I do know you were allowed to throw and engage in grappling from the waist up, which is still very advantageous for Heenan. Obviously, the threat of Foreman's power is always looming, but it's not enough for me to pick him against someone who's essentially from a different sport entirely. Even if Heenan is, apparently, very overrated.
I do not know enough about John C. Heenan, or the London Prize Ring fights, to give an opinion on the outcome of this hypothetical match between John and George Foreman. However I can say this is a very interesting thread, guys, and I totally enjoyed reading every post!
I see the stipulations mention LPR rules and also 4 oz gloves. However, I thought fights under LPR rules were always bare knuckle; was that not the case?
Apparently Heenan weighed 190 lbs, and people think he's going to make things interesting by grappling with the much larger man known for shoving and framing people...?
So because he was able to frame and shove boxers under a comparatively very limited 70s boxing clinch, he's supposed to be able to grapple with people who had to train in actual forms of wrestling, and fought other trained wrestlers? Heenan being judged as a capable wrestler under a much more loose ruleset, in an environment that requires more grappling skill. Also, people who are 190-195 lbs like Heenan outgrapple people size of Foreman (217-224) into knots on a regular basis, especially untrained grapplers like George. Heenan's strength was also apparently pretty well regarded back then as well, though we can't really prove how it compares to George's. Still, you'll find people of great skill disparities outgrapple people bigger and stronger than them all the time due to superior technique and overall grappling ability. This content is protected
Foreman fought like that partly because he played football. He knew how to grapple. You can't compare Heenan to modern trained wrestlers who have 120+ years of development over him. Heenan can have all the technique he wants, he's still giving up 40-50 lbs and had WAY less striking experience. He has to get past the ramrod jabs and uppercuts to be able to grapple in the first place. And even if he does, he can get shoved back.
Knowing how to play football and using your strength against other players who don't know how to grapple either doesn't make you a grappler though, and even grapplers from 170 or 10000 years ago still have a heavy advantage over a grappling novice like George. And on top of that, small grapplers destroying larger stronger and novices in the way the video displayed has been around since the days of Milo. It's just a reality of a trained grappler fighting a novice, and that isn't just relevant to modern day wrestling. The fundamentals of wrestling during Heenan's era, and prior to it, are well documented, the difference in class here is clear. George isn't 'just shoving back' any experienced grappler from any era, he will have to work for it and without the proper fundamentals to do I just can't see him overcoming that disadvantage. I don't think the 20-30 pound difference is going to be as integral to the match as you think against someone with experience who isn't exactly small or weak himself. Heenan was about 5 pounds away from 200 lbs himself, and again it's not like 195 pound grapplers don't effortlessly obliterate 220 pound novices on a daily basis. That's essentially what this fight is; someone who was described as not only a competent wrestler but a good wrestler, against a novice. No amount of wrestling evolution saves George here, unless he knew how to wrestle himself. His striking alone won't be enough, as the LPR rules could allow Heenan to not engage and wait for literal hours for George to make a mistake and open himself up for a grappling exchange.
Football players know how to grapple. That's literally their job. Your post doesn't make any sense. They have to outmaneuver, out muscle, frame, shove, and pin each other. The technique is different from pure Orthodox wrestling, but it's heavily grapple oriented. Foreman was using his strength against other people who know how to grapple, not random guys off the street. Tell me which big men Foreman's size Heenan "destroyed"...? Heenan's record is ass. Bringing up a video of some smaller wrestler beating a larger man is irrelevant unless you can show me some evidence of him doing the same? What evidence do you have that he was a great wrestler? What's his wrestling record? Word of mouth statements and hearsay are not enough for me to favor a boxer whose record was 0-2-1 over an ATG. And I repeat, unless he can get past the jab and uppercuts he is getting brutally knocked out attempting to just shoot in and go for takedowns. It isn't just the 30 pound weight difference, Foreman never let anyone get in the inside and out grapple him in 40+ fights and is widely regarded as possibly the strongest boxer who ever lived.
What wrestling skills did Foreman display, exactly, in his fights? Holding onto an opponent, close to collapsing from exhaustion after a few rounds of slow boxing?