In most sports the current guys are better than previous eras, why would boxing be any different?

How do you know that a small percentage knows robinson?? Anyone who boxes knows robinson or hagler. You don´t think russians go on youtube and look at fights and highlights like anyone else in the world. Sounds more like its you who are narrow minded. Also if you weren´t narrow minded we wouldn´t be here arguing. No one told me about hagler or robinson i found them myself. Also the duran thing was on durans my story on instagram so yeah it´s long gone. Go to russia yourself and ask boxers if they know hagler, robinson or any of those legends and i put my life on it that they know them.

 

dude i dont need to go to russia for that. German amateur boxing is russian, my family is half russian. They dont care i know that. No they dont go on youtube and watch super old fights. A lot of boxers that box dont care about boxing, others do but a lot of them dont care too much. They train, fight spar but they dont follow the sport. Even a lot of pros do that.
Why on earth should they know hagler?

 

Thats why boxing hasn´t improved. What you should do is look at these fighters and take things from them and improve on it. These guys learned over hundreds of fights different moves and what worked and what didn´t. If sugar ray leonard never watched ali and robinson he would never have been as good as he was. He said he used to fight like a joe frazier and brawl until he watched those guys. Boxers would still be fighting like they did in the 1800s if someone didn´t take from those guys and added on. Thats why old school trainers were better, alot of them were boxers or they learned from another great trainer. Most trainers now are just self proclaimed, not all tho. Guys like buddy mcgirt is very good, robert garcia and others. Greatest trainers like jack black burn was a atg fighter, eddie futch was a fighter, ray arcel learned from another great trainer. And what these guys could do with a fighter was incredible. Like eddie futch gave montell griffin the game plan when he fought prime roy jones and griffin was beating roy jones on the scorecards until he got knocked down and faked like that weak punch after knocked him out. Or what arcel did with duran.

 

If youre acknowledging that peds have run rampant in modern times, then you can't really logically make the claim that athletes are "better", only that they have more access to easy gains and illegal boosting.

 

Not as well rounded and it comes from only fighting once or twice a year

 

You are right with what you are saying, the more fights you have the better skilled you are but there are 2 big problems with this.

1: the fight frequency a lot of old fighters had was just destructive for their own body. Even amateur fights are very hard to recover from, especially when you get koed. I am 100% certain that many old greats didnt rech their full potential because they messed up their body with to much fights. I think we can agree that a lot of old fighters were wrecked when they finished their career and died very early.
Sport science and training methods contributed to the modern form of training camp and on and off season, i think that that is a very smart concept. I mean there are certain journeyman fighters today that kind of live by that old school lifestyle by training everyday and fighting a lot alla glen johnson, but i dont feel like this is very smart for your own health, especially when you suffer a vicious ko, it can really damage your whole body.

2: A lot of old fighters had fights that were not hight quality matches, as a whole a old fighter of course had more high profile fights then a champ today but often times they would face very poor competition in between big important fights and i dont know if you gain that much experience from that. Today most good fighters try to only fight very good opposition each time they step into the ring, which makes sense because it isnt too beneficial for your body to fight very often.

i think a lot of you guys get me wrong. I like old fighters and they made boxing what it is today and I especially admire the old school mentality of daring to fight anybody and not the bullcrap we see today with guys like canelo or aj were money and promotional issues make it hard to organize a fight.

 

the thing is i dont compare raw talent I just compare the athlete the way he fought back then with today. If ali would have the same access to modern training methods and peds as today athletes, he might still be the best, but that is just such a hypothetic discussion that it simply doesnt make any sense to talk about that.
Peds are just a major part of the game i mean they were even back in the 60s. Remember when ali used smelling salt after beeing knocked down by cooper, which was absolutely illegal back then. I dont blame ali for doing that cause that just the way boxing is.

 

It wouldn't matter if you had evidence PED's were around since the bare knuckle days. My point was if PEDs are your only evidence that modern boxing has "evolved" and that the athletes are better today than 100 years ago that's pretty flimsy evidence and doesn't prove anything. You would need to compare the feats and stats of 100% natural athletes of both eras.

Show me a 100% natural athlete in the NBA whose more talented and explosive than Wilt Chamberlain? A modern boxer who has faster hands than meldrick Taylor who isn't on any sort of drugs or enhancements? A guy more explosive than mike tyson? I'll wait all day.

 

yeah but thats what i am saying they are all drugged up and therefor making a raw comparison to guys from the 30 s is impossible. How do you want to know their natural stats? What we do know is that peds get better and that this has a very positive effect on athletic performance over all. But a lot of guys here seem to believe that a guy like jack johnson who was probably natural all the was would have a chance against highly roided up guys of today.

but in addition to that nutrition, medical knowledge and the bigger more international talent pool also contributes to the evolvement of boxing.

 

ertwin, I salute you but you're on a hiding to nothing here my friend. The black-and-white aficionados will simply drown you in a kind of autistic feeding frenzy. These guys get more aggressive than any of segment of boxing fandom.

If, like me, you happen to think the very best of eras prior to the modern-ish era (say, 90's onwards) could compete at the top level.... but that the overall depth of talent in most weight divisions become puddle-like the further back you go... then good luck to you.

 

Disagree that it's been entirely "positive" change that has come with peds. I see the obvious benefits like increased strength, stamina, etc. But it's easy for a fighter to get hooked on them like any drug. You end up with junkies obsessed with looking good or substituting hard work and good technique for sheer physical ability. The "art" in martial art gets lost and it's easy for ring IQ to decrease the more athletes focus on stats and numbers.

Which makes it ironic that you'd bring up a guy like Jack Johnson. He was way ahead of his time. Even the most die hard modernists will admit he was a pioneer of good ring IQ and defensive ability not seen in the heavyweight division. His spoiling tactics like grappling, parrying, countering, and smothering an opponent frustrated them as he brought the pace down to a slow methodical level, then he'd suddenly increase the pressure as his opponent was broken down and he still had plenty of energy. He was a far better inside fighter than modern heavies and fought for bouts scheduled for 20 rounds or more.

But at the end of the day he was still 6 ft and around 205 lbs while lacking raw power. Do I think he could beat guys like Lennox Lewis, Fury, Klitschko, or Bowe? Absolutely not. But if brought to modern times to compete with cruiserweights he'd make quite a name for himself. I don't understand why people always gloss over the tremendous stamina and high ring IQ of old school fighters while obsessing over big muscles and height. Yes the big men of today are generally more athletic than the big men of yesterday, but the ones who develop their ring IQ to go along with their size and power are rare. I think Johnson could surprise some people if he fought meat heads like Frank Bruno and Ruddock or flabby plodders like Samuel Peter and Chris Arreola.

Also about your last comment, making a sport more widespread, international, and commercialized can (key word here, I didn't say that it always does) also water it down. This is part of the reason there were so many legendary boxing trainers back in the day because boxing was centered primarily in a few key major cities such as Philly, NY, Pittsburg, Brockton, etc and the best fighters simply had no choice to move there to find good trainers and managers or they'd be making peanuts and have very little clue what they were doing. This is like comparing the difference between a 1 on 1 apprenticeship for becoming an electrician/plumber/carpenter etc under an extremely knowledgeable technician with decades of experience vs a generic bare bones class at a local community college with 30 other students and a professor whose barely worked 3 years in the field (or none at all). The latter is more "respectable" and "prestigious" in society's eyes and sean as humanity making "progress" for a more elite career. It isn't Harvard or Yale but it's better than learning poor people stuff and literally getting your hands dirty. However, the irony is that the apprentice is almost guaranteed work once they graduate and has gained invaluable knowledge and wisdom from a veteran whose seen it all. The college student might barely learn anything even if they get an A because the professor is too busy to focus on them with 29 other students. In addition, the college does not usually encourage the practical skills and demonstrating their knowledge, simply gaining just enough information to pass quizzes and tests and inevitably failing to retain 70% of the things they studied. Even if they get their degree, it is unlikely that they will retain much info, they will not have much experience and they will not be lined up for a job unless they took an internship or have good connections.

Similarly, modern fighters join big gyms with 30, 40, or even 50+ boxers. The place is exciting, always hearing the heavybag rattling or rope skipping, someone grunting doing sit ups or sweat flying from sparring matches. This is good if the gym's goal is to make money and the members simply want to lose weight or learn how to defend themselves. It's not so great if the boxer wants to actually master their craft and develop the sweet science. It is simply impossible for a boxer to get the most out of their experience and learn something if the coach has 7, 8, 9 other boxers or even worse, if it's a class where all 30+ people are participating in a tae bo style drill session. I've seen this happen in almost every gym ive been to be it boxing, karate, jiu jutsu, muy Thai etc.

Anyway my rant is over and I think you get my point.

 

Hey, put something forward yourself.


Salute him?

Ha!

For what?

For spewing some of the most ignorant things we’ve ever seen?

Things such as:

“The 2050 HW champ would be able to crush Tyson Fury with ease”

“Today’s fighter’s are the best fighters of all time, up until now”


The guy’s an absolute ignoramus.

Any knowledgeable boxing knows that boxing has progressed from his roots. Nobody is disputing that. However, the sport does not KEEP PROGRESSING over time.

It doesn’t improve with every decade.


The sport simply ebbs and flows, and has done for years.

There is absolutely no guarantee whatsoever, that in 10 years time, all of the fighters will be better than everyone today.

He wants to quote sprinting data to prove his point, when all he has to do is watch the fights.

I will give you and him a PERFECT example of how the sport ebbs and flows:


Today’s CW division is absolutely thriving. It’s very strong, with a lot of depth. It has a lot of great fighters.

Today’s SMW division isn’t thriving. It’s very weak, with no depth. It doesn’t contain lots of great fighters.

That’s boxing.


Go through the divisions.

The HW division has seen a resurgence. It’s better than it was 10 years ago.

The LMW division hasn’t. It was significantly stronger 20-25 years ago.

The MW division hasn’t. It was significantly stronger 25-30 years ago.


Now that’s not me being stuck in some ignorant nostalgia bubble. Especially as I’ve noted that today’s HW and CW divisions are better than they’ve been in the past. That’s me applying logic and common sense and using my eyes after watching the sport for more than 30 years.

If you don’t agree with my opinion, then do your own comparisons.

Today’s LMW, MW and SMW divisions aren’t as strong as they were in the 90’s.

Again, go and see for yourself.

Nobody is going to argue that Callum Smith, BJS, Canelo and Ryder, are a better group of SMW’s than RJJ, Toney and Calzaghe etc.

So where’s the progression?

I’ve given you THREE WHOLE DIVISIONS which have REGRESSED over the last 20 years.

Not only have they not improved, they’re nowhere near as strong.

So how does the sport keep improving??

It doesn’t.

Pretty simple if you’re a knowledgeable fan of the sport.


I’ll leave you with this final point:

Any fighter in the history of the sport, would be capable of beating any other fighter, depending on how they’d have matched up stylistically.

Official recorded data says that a sprinter today is faster than a sprinter of 30 years ago. Yet there’s MANY fighters of 30 years ago, which would be able to beat MANY of today’s guys.


You guys need to go and watch some fights and educate yourself on the subject.

 

Great post.

Unfortunately, it will be lost on this joker.

 

You’ve been digging your heels in a long time now, going back and forth with us all.

Just answer me ONE question:

If the sport keeps progressing, then why aren’t today’s LMW’s, MW’s and SMW’s, as GOOD as what they were TWENTY - TWENTY FIVE YEARS AGO?

Please explain.

 

The problem with this is, that for as long as there has been boxing, old-timers have scoffed at the present - while at the same time idolizing their own era.

That's only natural, as early impressions often will be very strong, and stay with you forever. Nothing wrong with that - as long as we take their opinions with a grain of salt.