Debating my top ten HW list

How can you count Tyson’s win over Michael Spinks as his best heavyweight performance? Don’t you have Spinks as a light heavyweight and thus have to pretend he never fought at heavy — same way Roy Jones Jr was not a super middle?

Where’s the consistency?

 

solid list although I would vary slightly in the order, the only big difference is I have Marciano in and Liston just missing the cut.

 

I think if Roy Jones Jr can’t be considered a super middleweight because ‘you have him at light heavyweight and a guy can’t be in two divisions in your world’ then the same has to apply to Spinks. Thus you can’t consider him a heavyweight in any way for ranking purposes if you want to be consistent.

If RJJ doesn’t exist at SM then Spinks doesn’t exist at heavy.

 

that’s cool...I feel the same about Liston

 

Not a bad list, but as you allude to we all rank fighters with slightly differing criteria. I consider perceived head-to-head ability but I tend to have that secondary to achievements, consistency, who they beat / lost to etc. Given you're a little hotter on head-to-head it makes sense that the likes of Jeffries, Johnson etc., of whom there's less complete footage, aren't on your list, whereas they'd be on mine.

Holyfield at #7 seems a little generous, much as I love Evander as a fighter. I give him plenty of points for being the smaller guy in most of his Heavyweight contests, and there was a lot of talent around in the nineties. But if we roughly accept that his four best or defining opponents at Heavy were Bowe, Moorer, Tyson and Lewis, he has a 4-4-1 ledger against them, and that's including a pretty undeserved draw against Lewis. Again I'll stress, great fighter and faced a high level of competition, but I don't think that record entitles him to a spot as high as #7. You could say that Foreman and / or Holmes were more significant than Moorer, which might help his stats and rating, but both were very faded when he beat them, though still reasonably live opponents.

Mind you, after getting past three I think the gaps are pretty minor and arbitrary, and I could maybe see Holyfield as high as #9 or #10 if I was feeling generous...so maybe we're not that far apart on Holyfield and I've wasted a couple of paragraphs.

I couldn't have Wlad in my top ten, though. Fantastic longevity, but for how much of his championship-holding career (2000-2015) was he actually the best Heavyweight in the world? Certainly not 2000-2004, which were Lewis' years. Probably the best of a horrendous bunch between 2005-2007, but that's not saying much. Better performances and a few extra unifications in 2008-2012 help his cause, but now with his brother back in town there's still that uncomfortable, lingering doubt another whether he's even the best Heavyweight in his family (although I'm happy to concede that's not his fault and he was beating significantly better opposition than Vitali during this period). Runs up a few wins over generally serviceable opposition 2013-2015, but then loses to Fury and Joshua. Yes, he was past his best by then, and the Joshua loss in particular was very valiant....But nevertheless Fury and Joshua are very possibly the two best fighters he ever fought, and he lost to both of them.

Very respectable Heavyweight champion, but he just doesn't have the wins to be a top ten guy for me, nor did he do enough to suggest he could beat one of the elite greats of the division unless he had a huge size and weight advantage.

 

My thoughts:
- Foreman is too high to me and I hate to say that as a Foreman fan, his resume is top heavy but he lacks depth. I'd have Holmes over him.
- I'd have Holyfield and Frazier over Tyson.
- Liston over Frazier or Wlad doesn't make any sense to me and to be honest I don't have Liston in my top 10.

 

Have at me, people.

#1. Muhammad Ali
#2. Joe Louis
#3. Larry Holmes
#4. Lennox Lewis
#5. George Foreman
#6. Wladimir Klitschko
#7. Evander Holyfield
#8. Joe Frazier
#9. Rocky Marciano
#10. Sonny Liston
#11. Jack Johnson
#12. Mike Tyson
#13. Ezzard Charles
#14. Floyd Patterson
#15. Riddick Bowe

In all honesty, I can see Bowe as high as #10, I'd just have to rework the order before doing so.

 

I have been called a Tyson hater before (?not sure why?) but I can’t see him outside of the top 10. Charles and Patterson I see more in the 18-20 type of range. I can’t see Bowe at the top 10 but I do place him in the 15-17 tier and think where you have him is fair.

 

Oh no-n-n-no we can't have Charles lower. Not happening Philly.

Sure, I can see them two lower, not that low mind, but lower. I don't think it's right to have Charles below Dempsey or Walcott, or even Schmeling. Imo, he's clearly the 2nd best below 200lbs (after Marciano). Patterson's rankings depends on how you critique his losses I guess. I don't really degrade people if they lose, especially if they beat them in return.

Tyson, however, doesn't have the résumé imo, I can see him as high as 10, and not much higher. I think he's just below Liston and Johnson (as in not enough in it to really argue otherwise) and can't see him too far ahead of those. I like Marciano at #9, and think that's where Tyson's cap is.

In Bowe's case, it comes down to those two wins over Evander. That's better than anything Tyson, Marciano or Liston have. In fact, it's better than most guys. Combine that with his 'meh' wins over Pinky, Bert, Tubbs, Golota (although those last 3 are obviously a little suspect), Dokes and Ferguson ect. and I think he has a niche little case over the few guys at the places I mentioned.

I don't know, maybe it's just me.

 

If you've got the time or inclinations I'd be very interested in hearing your reasons for having Wladimir as high as #6, pal. Especially as there's a gap of six between him and Tyson, which I just can't see.