Who Do You Rank Higher - Dempsey Or Liston?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, May 26, 2020.



Who ranks highest?

  1. The Mauler?

    35.2%
  2. The Bear?

    64.8%
  1. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    The fact that Sharkey fought no less than 28 fights against top 10 ranked heavyweights from his 6th pro fight all the way to his very last fight when he was years past it and still came out with a winning record . 3 of those losses were against universally regarded atg heavyweights. Almost all of his losses came when he was past prime or pre prime.


    Then you're incredibly weak minded. You could argue that Sonny Liston was capable of flight and I wouldn't change my mind on his standing in the division. Apparently you don't feel the same way. Also I'll take that as an obvious yes to my question.
    Patterson would lose to Bowe. As you say "make a poll about it".

    He literally says "the resumes are comparable". Not at ANY point in that quote did he say he rated Patterson's resume above Sharkey's. @70sFan865 could you clear this up real quick? Am I right when I say you rate Patterson higher than Sharkey but you also think their resumes are comparable?
     
  2. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Weren't you the one who undermined Patterson's record against the top ten? It's fine that you have an agenda but at least be consistent.



    I did not change my standing of Marciano based on your and other's unrealistic views on him, only my admiration.


    Very likely. I agree. I still rate Patterson higher.


    We shall see.
     
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  3. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    "awfully difficult"? Did you even read the descriptions of the fight?

    " The newspapers including the Quebec Daily Telegraph hailed Wills as a winner who “took almost every round and in the second round floored his opponent.” "

    ""Wills takes Firpo for punching bag"

    "No decision is permitted by the boxing law in New Jersey, but a decision never was so unnecessary. Not even the partisan followers of the South American champion who sat with the 60,000 in Tex Rickard's arena felt that Firpo could win"
     
  4. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I said that I rank Patterson higher because he had less losses and was more consistent. Their resumes are comparable though. Sharkey had many wins against top opponents but he lacked ATG win. The same thing applies to Patterson - he beat many good fighters but never won against all-timer.
     
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  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Firpo did take Wills to a no decision. That is the truth.

    Nat Fleischer always said the fight was an absolute dud. A wrestling match. One of those bouts where they cancelled out each other.

    The film bares this out, and so does the detailed description of the round by round account whereby the action is not one sided. Firpo is described landing haymakers in every round. Maybe Wills had an edge. It certainly was not one sided.

    The odds going into the fight were about even. Firpo disappointed the press by not being in as good shape as he had been against Dempsey and they were left with having to hype Wills (rather than Firpo) as the next challenger to Dempsey. The tone is certainly biased against the Argentine.

    With no official decision the press have free reign to promote whatever they think will make the better story. In a close fight they can even decide to favour the fighter who’s manager took them to lunch.

    Every round was untidy and mauling yet they select the same guy winning most of them?

    Taking Wills the full way, when Harry was regarded as the next best or equal to Dempsey is a feather in Fipos cap if you ask me. There was no official decision.
     
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  6. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    The same Newspaper said that “The bull had no horns and the Panther was clawless”. I wonder how a “clawless panther” made a punchbag out of Firpo?

    Must have been sensationalism.

    We both know that the detailed report describes a fair number of blows landed by Firpo in each round between complaints at being held by Wills.
     
  7. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    Liston had a better resume in terms of fighters he beat- Patterson, Machen, Williams etc.

    Dempsey never quit in a championship fight

    Liston was a harder puncher, had a longer reach, was heavier

    Dempsey was much faster, nearly as hard a hitter, probably better defensively too

    However, i rank Liston higher because in a h2h sense, Liston matches up better vs guys like Foreman, Tyson, etc.

    Dempsey matches up better vs Ali (though Ali still beats him), but its hard to imagine Dempsey beating Foreman or Tyson.

    They both match up reasonably well vs Louis (both guys would be underdogs to Louis), Holmes (both guys would be 50-50 vs Holmes IMO), and Holyfield

    I also expect Liston to beat Lewis while the mauler would be an underdog vs Lewis (though if he connects on Lewis, who knows)

    Overall both guys lack impressive title reigns, and both are similar in terms of ability, but Liston's enormous strength, physique and power makes him a better h2h match up vs most other top 10 heavyweights.

    Now if Dempsey had defended his title 10-15 times and had beaten guys like Wills, Godfrey, etc, i could undoubtedly rank him higher.
     
  8. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    From what I've seen, Wills won comfortably but he didn't dominate Firpo. It was very boring fight with full of grappling and mauling. Firpo was visibly annoyed by Wills approach.

    Anyway, Firpo is arguably not even among top 5 Dempsey wins.
     
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  9. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'd take Machen and Ingo twice over Carnera, Wills and Godfrey. If we factor in bad decisions then imo Patterson gains Quarry and Sharkey loses Schmeling.
     
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  10. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    I see you've resorted to claiming that every report describing the bout as a one-sided win for Wills was a pack of lies. Amazing how many lying pressmen there were at work that night.

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    It really is time to stop claiming that this fight was a "feather in Firpo's cap". It wasn't a great performance by Wills but it didn't have to be, because Firpo was so bad.
     
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    If Firpo was so bad, what does that make Wills? He couldn’t stop him.

    one of these reports does Acknowledge the knockdown was a foul ..and that the police restrained Firpos corner from entering the ring to complain about this. It also states that the crowd was very pro Wills and that the referee turned a blind eye to all of the holding, kidney shots and rabbit punches that were conducted by Wills.
     
  12. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    And if I'd made some claim about Wills being a great fighter then that might actually be relevant. Once again you seem to have forgotten that you're the one trying to argue that this bout was a "feather in Firpo's cap".
     
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  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, it's an open and closed book.

    Wills was poor, Firpo was worse.

    Your position is irrefutable. Unfortunately, you're talking to someone who struggles to assimilate information.
     
  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Exactly. If Wills was so highly regarded at that time then it is noteworthy that one of Dempseys victims caused Wills difficulty.
     
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  15. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    Firpo made Wills look like ****. The newspaper accounts report that and so does the footage available. The accounts also describe Wills clinching and both fighters matching each other punch for punch in more than a few rounds. Hardly a spectacular display of action. Not to mention this guy was dispatched by Dempsey in no less than 2 rounds prior to Wills yet Wills scored little more than a flash knockdown and a boring fight.

    Did Wills win the fight? Yes.
    Was it a boring fight that showed the number 2 heavyweight unable to put away an “oafish, fat, unskilled bum with nothing more than an okay right hand” as described by posters? Absolutely.
     
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