I try to be fair as possible. If both people have decent points, whether they're in opposition or not, I want them to know I feel what they're saying. I do that at times even when I completely disagree, because I feel the member has some sort of validity to what they're saying.
I don't. 1978-1981 Larry takes some heavy shots early on but does enough to keep away from Mike, gets careless and knocked down in the middle rounds, but gets that nasty.vicious look on his face and starts stepping in and twisting that jab in frightfully ugly manner. He gets back in control within a round, floors Mike with the uppercut in the 10th and the ref stops it shortly after.
Holmes came back from Witherspoon, Weaver, Shavers, Norton. When Tyson got seriously hurt, the fight was usually over for him. Only the Ruddock and Botha fights were the exception to the rule and let's face it, Mike didn't get knocked down by either. Holmes was knocked down and almost out by Snipes, Weaver, and Shavers, came back to wipe the floor with them. Mike never did ANYTHING like that (and keep in mind, I'm a fan of Mike). Mike looked heroic when he kept walking back during a beating from Lennox Lewis that at times bordered on torture porn. And he LOST that fight, he didn't end up winning it. Him knocking down Douglas after getting dominated himself doesn't seem like much, he still got knocked out. Mike was a great fighter, top 10 ATG absolutely. The guys above him, like Holmes, Foreman, Louis, and Ali, were greater partly because they came back many times from looking like they were being soundly beaten to win, often decisively. I can't put him above those fighters, and I can't place him as the winner against any of them head to head, because of that. Joe Louis would go down, get up and win, Ali, Holmes, Foreman...they all did that. Mike didn't. I could be missing your point, if so forgive me @Sangria as I respect your posts.
Well, you never really saw that with Mike because he never really let that happen to him. In the Ruddock fights, whenever Ruddock hurt him Mike would resume control right back almost immediately. Tucker got him early and then held, along with Bonecrusher and Green, because they were afraid to open up against Mike. Whenever they did they'd get shell shocked and go back into the clinch. I posted before about these so called terms of greatness. Where does it say that someone needs to come back from the brink of defeat at least once in order to be an All Time Great fighter? Why are these stipulations held for Mike Tyson only? PLENTY of ATG fighters who've NEVER come back from beatings to win. Why hold Mike to that standard? Holmes had complete control of Snipes and Shavers but fought firefights with Norton and Weaver. Nobody could hit and trade with Tyson and live about it. Ruddock was able to, a bit, but what's more impressive to me is someone who doesn't get dropped. Ruddock never dropped Tyson, neither did Botha or Tucker or Thomas or Tillis. Isn't that more impressive to you, being able to stay on your feet? I also stated Mike almost pulled it off against Douglas in the 8th, proving it was possible. Had it happened earlier in the round, Douglas might not survive. Who knows. But it's far more impressive to me to NOT get floored from single shots and only going down after double digit rounds of punishment. It's insane, all these rules and stipulations put on Mike Tyson that aren't held to any other fighter's standards. It's like moving the goal posts when these "rules" get debunked. Oh Mike was able to do that huh, well he never did this...he never did that, he didn't knock everyone out, he only went the distance 4 times against shop worn fighters, etc blah blizow!! It's unbelievable, really. Mmmmmaybe you're all thinking Mike is actually better than you're leading on....hmmm?
Tyson had clearly a better chin than Larry Holmes, simply Holmes recovered himself better but Tyson's chin was more sturdy.
I have them fairly close H2H. I believe only 5 fighters beat a prime Holmes. Ali, Louis, Frazier, Liston, and Foreman. Dermpsey is a live dog. I think those same fighters beat Tyson except maybe Frazier, and Louis. Add Holyfield and Holmes to that list. Give Dempsey an outside chance to beat Tyson as well. Undecided with Lewis but leaning Towards Tyson atm. Both 2 comfortably make my top ten (maybe even top 5) H2H.
Let me make sure i am reading this right. You are saying it's a proven fact fighter A hits harder than fighter B because they were measured on a machine and A measured higher? Were you the one that said the other day Holyfield was ripped off in the first Lewis fight and it's one of the worst robberies you've ever seen? I don't think anyone is holding their breath if you are talking about machine readings. LOL By all means enlighten us. So you scored it a draw obviously?
This is true. Mention Razor Ruddock as an example of a tough fight won by Tyson and there's some excuse why that doesn't count. The other one that comes up a lot is "never avenged a loss" (something Larry Holmes never did either). Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko never won a fight they were knocked down in either, so I guess they can be counted out of a winning a tough one too. Throw in Canelo and Golovkin as well. It's a strange world where almost being knocked senseless by Renaldo Snipes and winning is more impressive than, you know, actually beating him without being knocked down at all.
Some good points, but in a lot of camps one of the best ways to determine a good chin is how a fighter handles a knockdown. As you know, Mike didn't take one that well. Holmes was the kind of guy that was invigorated by getting hurt, and always became dangerous. When Tyson was hurt and you knew it, it was over.
1. Yes, that's what I'm saying, although I'll agree that machine readings can be sketchy. But the guys who fought Shavers and Tyson (Tillis and Holmes) both said Shavers hit harder, so that is in Shavers' favor. 2. Yes, I do think Holyfield got robbed, and I can't believe I'm the only one. To me it looked obvious. 3. You asked to be enlightened, so I will go to the trouble: Jack Dempsey Joe Louis Rocky Marciano Sonny Liston George Chuvalo Muhammad Ali Oscar Bonavena Joe Frazier George Foreman Jimmy Young Larry Holmes Evander Holyfield Oliver McCall Ray Mercer All of those guys were clearly tougher than Tyson, and just to make it two dozen, I'll say that these guys were probably tougher than Tyson as well: James J. Braddock Eddie Machen Doug Jones Ron Lyle Pinklon Thomas Tim Witherspoon Riddick Bowe Lennox Lewis That's just the heavyweights. All of these guys won very difficult fights. All were down, cut badly, or behind on points and came back. Like I've said before Tyson has a few fights that he survived, but I believe that is an overstated point.
