Best five wins thread. Lineal / Ring Magazine heavyweight champions.

Also the fact the rankings were frozen hurt Bivins.

He was the interim champion during the war, but when the war ended, men like Conn who had been inactive for years leapfrogged over his head.

 

Criticizing Louis for not fighting top figters is ridiculous. He faced more top fighters than any other HW in history..

 

One of my favourites;
1-Ingo 1, revenge over a peak fighter
2-Moore-An underrated win, Archie was beating good contenders 5/6 years later
3-Bonavena-A turn-back-the- clock win against a good,prime fighter.
4-Machen-important historical win and Eddie was on a run, defeating decent Doug Jones, London, Reischer, DeJohn and a draw with decent Cleveland Williams(can of worms?!)
5-Jackson 2 (needed to clear the air)
Add in Chuvalo and Cooper and the close shaves with Maxim, Quarry and Ellis. Most of these guys were prime for the fights too.

 

From March 27th 1942 until June19th 1946 Louis did not defend his title. His purses for his 2 defences [Simon& Buddy Baer,] in 1942 were donated to the Army and Naval Relief Funds,Louis taking only training expenses.
The day after the Baer fight Louis enlisted in the Army. He lost 4 years of his prime.
An idiot on here loses no opportunity to disparage Louis,"he was mob connected ,"BS! His manager Roxborough had been a numbers runner big deal!.
Louis' predecessor Braddock's manager Joe Gould was a mob guy and close friend of Owney Madden Public Enemy Number One when Madden was released from prison it was Gould outside waiting to pick him up.Part of Max Baer's contract was owned by the mob his predecessor Carnera was owned lock stock and barrel by them and his predecessor Sharkey and his manager had ties to the mob. Tunney borrowed a large sum of money from the mob
Walcott's manager was mob connected, as was Marciano's
"Lewis could not see"? He had a cataract in one eye ,less than 3 months before challenging Louis he had beaten Al Gainer in defence
of his lhvy title.A few months earlier he had ko'd Elmer Ray.
Was he as bad as Sam Langford and Harry Greb who were blind in one eye ,Pat Valentino blind in one eye? Any worse than Joe Frazier?

Anyone ever seen a primary source that states that Walcott the challenger refused to challenge Louis for the title unless he got a different referee other than Donovan?
Since when does the challenger dictate whom the officials will be?
There is a perpetual stream of hatred directed at three black champions Johnson,Louis, and Ali ,and it all emanates from the same poster.

Louis was squeaky clean he didn't need crooked referees and the piece of work asserting that Arthur Donovan was crooked without producing a single shred of evidence to support his claim should be prosecuted for libel.

 

In 1941 the highest rated black challenger throughout the year was Franklin (NBA #4 in September). That month Louis defended against #1 rated Nova.

In 1942, Louis' defences against Baer and Simon only took place because all three agreed to donate their purses to the war effort (as did Mike Jacobs). In January Louis entered the army and the title was then frozen for the duration.

In 1943, Louis was inactive besides doing exhibitions (due to being in the army and all that), so bringing up the ratings is meaningless.

In 1944 Louis was inactive (still in the army), so bringing up the ratings is meaningless.

In 1945, Louis was still inactive (still in the army), so bringing up the ratings is meaningless.

In 1946, 1947 and 1948 every title defence Louis made was against a #1 contender, therefore higher ranked than anyone you have named. Was he supposed to fight someone lower ranked instead? The last two defences were against a black #1 contender, who beat Ray and Bivins, so there goes that argument as well.

 

As for Patterson:
- Ingo. KO'd the guy who KO'd him and regained the title.
- Moore. Walked through the man who gave Rocky hell the year before. Moore was still a top 10 heavy years later.
- Bonavena. For someone with a rep for being small and fragile, he handled a brute like Oscar pretty good.
- Cooper. Everyone thought Floyd was finished after being battered by Ali (including Cooper, it seems) and KO'd Enry smack cold (with a right hand as well).
- Machen. Cleanly outpointed the #2 contender who was was on a good streak at the time.

 

Just on Louis before going to Patterson. In 1941 the highest ranking contender Louis didn't fight was Max Baer who was the #1 contender until KO'd by Nova. Had Baer won, I think he would have gotten a shot at Louis. The Nova fight was because Nova had KO'd Max a couple of years earlier.

Louis' record in 1941. ** is the NBA rating at the time of the fight. * is rated in this position that year by the NBA but I don't know the exact rating at the time of the title challenge.

Red Burman-----#2 **
Gus Dorazio-----#5 (The Ring 1943. Was rated by the NBA & The Ring off and on from 1938 to 1943)
Abe Simon-------#4*
Tony Musto------#9 (NBA & The Ring. Was the weakest contender, but had been rated since 1938 and would be rated in 1942)
Buddy Baer------#3*
Billy Conn--------#1**
Lou Nova---------#1**

Holy cats! This is one year. No champion has ever done anything like this. Conn and Nova entered the ring against Louis #1 contenders. Burman as the #2 contender. Baer & Simon were rated in the top five that year. Louis is making more defenses in this one year than Dempsey or Marciano did in total. And what does he get for it? Criticism for not fighting a lower ranked black fighter who only emerged as a contender while Louis was fighting the #1 rated guys.

Any criticism of Louis' efforts in 1941 is the most insane possible.

 

And what about the black and white contenders after 1942? A lot depends if you go by The Ring or by the NBA, the official sanctioning body.

Here are the men who were rated top three contenders by the NBA from 1942 until Louis' retirement. ** is Louis defended against during this period. * is Louis defended against earlier.

White contenders.

defended against
Billy Conn**
Tami Mauriello**
Bob Pastor*
Buddy Baer**

never defended against
Melio Bettina
Lee Savold
Joe Baksi
Bruce Woodco-k
Joey Maxim
Olle Tandberg

African-American contenders
defended against
Jersey Joe Walcott**

never defended against
Lem Franklin
Harry Bobo
Jimmy Bivins
Turkey Thompson
Elmer Ray

Ezzard Charles (as Louis announced he was planning to retire the night of the Walcott KO, I think Charles was more a technical contender as he emerged in the interim before the official retirement announcement. Louis of course fought Charles in 1950)

White fighters were rated higher by the NBA. Joe Baksi for example did better with the NBA than did Lee Q Murray or Turkey Thompson, who did better in The Ring's annual rankings. Baksi did have an excellent record and was big and durable, stopped only by Charles on cuts.

One problem with The Ring rankings, besides being done by a magazine which had no official sanction, is that what we have is only the end of the year ratings, which could be very misleading. The NBA ratings over at boxrec are quarterly and so give a better picture of what was happening in the division.

In the NBA ratings above more white fighters were rated in the top three, and more white fighters didn't get a shot at the title.

 

Nobody knows why Harold Johnson wasn’t in Jersey Joes top 5? He has a better Hw resume then most on his list

 

If a KO of Joe Louis is only #5, one has a pretty strong top five.

 

Floyd Patterson.

1-----Archie Moore (made him champion against a very proven fighter)
2-----Ingemar Johansson (I rate him behind Moore as it is so much his win over Patterson which makes him a top man. If he had lost to Floyd in 1959, Ingo would be a footnote in boxing history, a somewhat better version of Olle Tandberg, with the striking KO of Machen standing out in an otherwise average career. Moore was an ATG)
3-----Oscar Bonavena
4-----Roy Harris (unbeaten young fighter coming off big wins over Baker and Pastrano)
5-----Eddie Machen (I rated him behind Harris because it was post breakdown and he never seemed the same fighter, plus being on the cusp of a severe decline)

Not making the cut-----Hurricane Jackson (strikes me as overrated. Got the best of a lot of close decisions, and feasted on "names" who were in severe decline. I have no problem with putting him in these rankings. I just have my doubts)
George Chuvalo-----(was tough to stop, but not that tough to outpoint, with a record heavily padded with ham and eggers)
Henry Cooper-----would be on list if Henry were younger.