Why is Carlos Monzon ranked higher than Marvin Hagler?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bronze Tiger, Jun 29, 2020.



  1. Berlenbach

    Berlenbach Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Do gifts only happen in your home town?
     
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  2. surfinghb1

    surfinghb1 Member Full Member

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    It got complicated because Carlos fought for the Argentina MW title and the South American MW title , which varied as well .. But the fights even before that I think it was 2 or more points on the majority of judges cards ... I honestly just cant remember but the previous thread is there with some of the info ... and the poster here Chris HJ is up on it
     
  3. surfinghb1

    surfinghb1 Member Full Member

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    But I will tell you this which is the biggest misconception about Monzon .. That he had it easy early on .. I have read many many articles, all in Spanish, some english, coming from the people who were around him early on .. And watched documentaries in Spanish put out by Argentina sports writers about him and his trainer Amilcar Brusa ... Brusa had 15 world champions and there was very tough boxing going on at Luna Park .. Archie Moore and Saddler frequented it often fighting there ans well ...The fact of the matter is that Carlos was the underdog in the vast majority of his fights ... but surprised everyone ... Go to the thread if you can , I have posted a lot of info on Monzon as it is hard, like you say to understand the fight scene going on down there at the time .. But I have scene footage and interviews etc .. and it is awesome
     
  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    14 of the 18 decision wins or draws Monzon had in Argentina were against fellow Argentines 7 in their hometown of Buenos Aries'
    I'm providing you with statistical facts. All you are replying with is insinuations and innuendos.

    I could just as easily say Monzon might have deserved the win in the 2 draws he had against a Brazilian in Brazil,but I prefer to stick to provable facts.
     
  5. Berlenbach

    Berlenbach Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This content is protected
     
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Its nearly 1.30 am here, I'm for bed.
     
  7. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I read that thread and the article attached. Basically, the winner of a round was awarded 20 points (instead of 10), the loser less.

    The final score in a 1966 bout with Jorge Fernandez was 238-236 and 237-235 on the two remaining cards in Monzon's favor.

    If you halve those scorecards giving the winner 10 points instead of 20 (like the current 10-point must), the first card (238-236) is 119-118 over 12. And there was a knockdown.

    Or, in rounds, that's 1 round Monzon (with a knockdown), 1 round Fernandez, 10 ROUNDS EVEN. Monzon wins.

    They had a rematch, Monzon won again. This time by scores of 240-237 (twice) and 240-232.

    Halving both scores again (giving the winner 10 instead of 20 points a round) ... the two 240-237 scorecards become 120-118.5.

    Or, basically, 1 round Monzon, and roughly 10 or 11 even. Yeah, Monzon wins!

    The scoring works both ways, however.

    In fights where he left with a draw, it's perfectly conceivable that Monzon LOST the fight on one, or more, or ALL of those cards, too, but his opponent just didn't win by multiples of points on each card to get the win. Correct?

    Or are we just going to assume Monzon won every fight that ended in a draw?

    Like we're pretending he dominated all these unseen fights when he was picking up wins in fights with 10 and 11 EVEN rounds?
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
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  8. surfinghb1

    surfinghb1 Member Full Member

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    Yes you are right ... I'm glad you found some things because I have lost a lot because my computer crashed a long time ago, hence the new account .. I couldn't remember all the cards I did find .. but was lacking many in all his fights ,,, so i switched gears in researching the account of his fights fro the people who were there ... very possible he could have been on the wrong end of the stick ..
     
  9. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    No. We're going to call them Draws, because that's what they were.

    What's the point of splitting hairs over bouts, all of which occurred in the first half of Monzon's career, when the latter half of 8 years; 31 bouts; 0 Losses and 0 Draws, constitutes both his prime and his Championship run?
     
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  10. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'm not saying we should change them.

    But a lot of fighters in history on the way up could've escaped a lot of losses if you had to lose by two points or more on all three cards to get a loss.
     
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  11. surfinghb1

    surfinghb1 Member Full Member

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    That is why I say, that Monzon was not the favorite in these fights early on ..... I have not come across the opposing view of it
     
  12. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Maybe this applies to Monzon; maybe not.

    It's a moot point, given the circumstances of a peculiar scoring system of the times and the place; at what stage they occurred in Monzon's career, that all but one of the Draws were addressed in rematches, as well as what Monzon achieved overall, over the 8-year period, after his last Draw.
     
  13. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes, but it would be nice to see the scores of all his pre-title wins, pre-title losses AND draws.

    Even in the two Monzon wins I pointed out, roughly 10 rounds in both 12 rounders were scored a draw. That's a lot of even rounds against the same guy in two different fights.

    A 12-round fight where one guy wins 2 rounds to 1 with the rest even ... is questionable on a lot of levels. When it happens twice against the same guy, even moreso.

    How often did that happen? And how badly did Monzon lose when he actually did finish two rounds or more behind ON ALL THREE cards? How far behind was he?

    How many times was he was actually down on the cards in those draw verdicts but the other guy didn't win by two points or more on all three cards?

    All that weighs in to how we view fighters.

    The fact that we can't watch Monzon lose or draw with anyone certainly benefits him ENORMOUSLY when you can watch the guy you're comparing him to actually lose or draw.

    Just saying "Oh well, that's how they scored it" is one thing. Seeing those "draws" and losses is another.

    It's funny, the guys in the lighter weight classes who are rated near the very top often tend to be people we don't have many films of losing (even when we know they did).
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
  14. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    lol
     
  15. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I forgot this was catchwtboxing's thread. Where'd he go?
     
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