Why is Carlos Monzon ranked higher than Marvin Hagler?

Monzon fought Manuel Severino from Brazil twice who had 9 draws in his career .. Monzon fought Salinas from Argentina who also had 9 draws in his career and I can go on and on .. The scoring was just very different ,, It's Irrelevant in the big picture of things..

 

Great title runs aside, I get the feeling if we could watch Monzon get flattened three times in eight rounds against a relative nobody ... and see the other guy get his hand raised when he's named the winner ... or fight 10 round draws against guys with one win ... it would probably have a negative impact on Monzon's overall standing.

As would the fights he "won" where he was only awarded two of the 12 rounds.

Things like that tend to matter, especially when we can watch Marvin fight to a draw or lose a decision.

 

see! that's how long ago it was! I forgot who started it!

 

Oh, you're Bronze Tiger! late in the evening ig

 

I just dont get your point DC .. I mean I have acknowledged that the draw fights could have worked in favor of Monzon being behind and getting the draw .. It is a different scoring system where I gave other examples of " draws being the norm " compared to here ..Knowing that, it just is a real overall weak argument in trying to diminish Monzon because it was the scoring system there for all fighters , not just him

 

Saying a scoring system is bad is one thing. Seeing it is another. That's all I'm saying.

I get that they needed to win by two points or more on all cards. I got it.

It's not just that, though. It's 12-round fights with 10 even rounds.

It's the fact that the scores aren't widely available. It would be nice to see those, as fans.

As would seeing a guy go down three times and losing ... as opposed to never seeing him lose at all.

We can see all of Hagler's losses and draws. And I don't recall him ever getting flattened three times in a fight in any of them.

Monzon had a dozen losses and draws. AND he was winning 12-rounders with 10 even rounds. And he was getting bounced off the floor by nobodies.

A little visual perspective would be nice, since we have that for the guy we're comparing him to.

 

It would. Although, I'd be more interested in knowing if and how these rules influenced the approach of Argentinian Boxers, fighting in those times under those rules.

It is. However, this could just as easily speak to the quality of the judging or the guidelines given to the judges, which they followed. These aspects would also likely to have been known to the Boxers of the times and so, similar to my previous point, I'd be interested to know more about how bouts were judged and the guidelines, as well as the potential influence these things had on the fights.

This is where we probably differ on the matter the most. I don't really care that much about these Draws or whether or not they could be seen as Losses. Monzon still had a 31-0-0 win streak including 15 World Title Fights, which supersedes the Losses and the Draws.

This is a level of consistency in the 'W' column that I am more than happy with, when assessing Monzon.


Just as a point of reference, Draws were immensely common in Argentina and on the South American continent, in general, at the time.

The following Boxers all have a relatively high number of Draws, decided in Argentina, on their records:

- Andres Selpa had 30 draws from 217 contests, 22 of which were awarded in Argentina.
- Nicolino Locche had 14 draws from 135 contests, 13 of which were awarded in Argentina.
- Santos Laciar had 11 draws from 100 contests, 10 of which were awarded in Argentina.
- Gregorio Peralta had 9 draws from 116 contests, only 4 of which were awarded in Argentina (but he fought roughly half of his career outside of Argentina).
- Victor Galindez had 4 draws from 68 contests, all 4 of which were awarded in Argentina.

My interest in watching bouts during his early career development is as it is for any Great fighter's contests, of which we don't have or can't find footage.

As it stands and to be frank, even if Monzon had registered a career of 87-12-0 (1NC), I would still know that, from the 56-12-0 mark, he didn't lose again for 8 years and, at that point in the division's history, had notched up the longest Middleweight Title run ever (all of which is on film). I guess that would probably tell me all I really needed to know, with anything else being a bonus.

 

I totally see your point.

After all, Wlad is considered an all-time great, thanks in large part to his extended 10-year undefeated run.

But, if all we had of Wlad Klitschko's career was his 10-year undefeated run from the Castillo fight in 2005 to the Jennings fight in 2015 ... and there wasn't film of him getting bounced off the floor or seeing other fighters' hands raised numerous times ... we might wonder how this guy ever possibly lost.

That would certainly help Wlad's all-time standing - hell he might be rated #1 all-time at heavy - and would certainly affect how we compare him to other fighters, even if we knew the other results.

NOT being able to see loses is a benefit. Looking at names and results on a chart isn't the same.

When we compare Hagler and Monzon, people talk about Hagler's loses.

Monzon lost to FAR WORSE people than Hagler did. FAR worse.

But nobody saw them. And we're told to just forget those. They don't matter.

But, apparently, all of Marvin's losses and draws DO matter, because people can easily see them.

That's my point.

 

Somebody in this thread actually said Monzon would never lose to Willie 'The Worm' Monroe.

Monzon got dropped three times and lost to Felipe Cambiero, for God's sake.

But we can't pull it up and slow down the film and watch all the knockdowns, and Monzon stagger and stumble and barely make it to the final bell and watch Felipe's hand get raised.

So it doesn't count, apparently.

A poster can say Monzon would never lose to Willie "The Worm" Monroe and everyone just gives that a pass because they didn't see Monzon lose to freaking Alberto Massi, which he did.

Yet they can watch Hagler lose a decision to Monroe with a simple click.

Marvin Hagler never loses to Alberto Massi. How about that?

 

Very interested. What’s the name of that thread?

 

It's up to the individual to assess a Boxer, based on what they know - and be fair in doing so.

I find the Losses and Draws on Hagler's record somewhat insignificant, when held up to his overall body of work. In a kind of strange coincidence, the one bout, in which Hagler is considered by some to have suffered his only clear-cut, legitimate loss (Monroe I) is not available on film.

Another point about Hagler is that he was fighting Ring-rated contenders away from home, at only 21 years old. So, I'm honestly not all that concerned if there are those that rate him higher than Monzon. I did, for a good many years.


Although I see your point in the comparison with Wlad and his longevity, I don't see a firm parity between Monzon and he, on account of Wlad not having beaten anyone, who is likely to be of great historical note in the Heavyweight division - and 4 of his 5 losses were suffered in Title fights.

Some will point to Byrd; others might add Povetkin and perhaps even bring the aged Mercer into the mix, but I don't see any of them comparing, pound-for-pound, to Benvenuti and Griffith, who are shoo-ins as Top-30 ATG Middleweights, in my opinion. Not to mention the underrated Valdez, who Monzon beat in the twilight of his career.

Again, I have to stress the fact that all of these apparent blemishes on Monzon's record occurred at a point when their significance is overshadowed by what came later; unlike Wlad, who came up nicely with promise, but then struggled whenever something new and half-decent fought back (though I can cut him a little slack for his age, at the end of his run, and the losses to Fury and Joshua).

Sure, seeing some of Monzon's lesser moments (if indeed that is what they are) might influence an opinion on him and his rating. However, it won't change what he did, how he did it and the fact that he reached a stage in his career when he effectively looked unbeatable.

For this reason, I feel confident that, in my own assessment of Monzon, watching one of his early losses would very likely have little to no bearing.

 

You can't actually.

 

When Carlos fought for the South Amercan Middleweight title in Jan 1966, it was against Jorge Fernandez, he suffered a knockdown in that title winning victory, he was only decked by Fernandez and Rodrigo Valdes in his last title defense on July 30 1977, in Monte Carlo, Monaco, Monzon retained by unanimous decision.

 

Carlos was decked by Jorge Fernandez in Jan 1966, in winning the South American Middleweight Title on points, and he was decked once against Rofrigo Valdes in his last sucessful title defense on July 30 1977 in Monte Carlo, Monaco, there is no truth to him being bounced a dozen times. I watched an interview with his trainer, Amilcar Brusa, on a Spanish channel, in July 1992, he said only Fernandez and Valdes decked Carlos, that led to Monzon deciding to retire. Monzon's record was 89-3-9, 61 KO's, he had not lost a fight since Oct 9 1964, spanning 82 consecutive victories.