Saddler just had his number. He went through a rough 5 fight stretch at one point where he came out of it 1-4. The one opponent he managed to beat? Pep.
I confess that I believe Holyfield beats pre-prison Tyson, during-prison Tyson, post-prison Tyson and any extra-dimensional version of Tyson where he never went to prison. Holyfield > Tyson. Not really close. His resume is better (even if we only count heavyweight), he took on and beat better opposition ... hell I think we can safely say Evander has as many as five (maybe more) better wins than Tyson’s best win ... including two over Tyson himself.
I would have completely agreed with you before this week. Holy was the MAN. But, after watching Mike in the 80s...he had a very good defense and was certainly superior in all ways but power compared to the 90s. I certainly see the 1987 Mike as being a rival to Bowe as an overall fighter...and I mean peak Bowe. That means Evander would have his hands much more full. After watching some peak Mike attentively, I switched over to the Pinkon and Dokes/Holy fights. Amazing, not far in terms of quality fighting from peak Mike. My conclusion? I still see Holy winning, but it would be a fight where he'd hit the canvas and get seriously rocked (perhaps even almost stopped at one point) before stunning everyone and roaring back to a TKO of Mike in rds 11 or 12. I don't think Mike could take Holyfield's insistent, darting style, and would start to be a lot more cautious when he sees Holy taking the shots and still on him. So, I MOSTLY agree with you lol.
Nobody in the history of the welterweight division beats prime Sugar Ray Robinson. Except Sugar Ray Leonard.
The thing that the “YouTube Generation” (and I’m not necessarily saying you’re part of that, but to some degree we all are) often misses is what every great fighter and coach tell us constantly — that boxing is 90 percent mental. Now if two guys are physically mismatched, the mental doesn’t usually come into play — someone gets their ears boxed off or gets overpowered. But when competitors are on or near the same tier, it’s a total mental game. Tyson beat a lot of people mentally by sheer intimidation ... they went into the ring scared and never overcame it. I think Seldon had a complete ‘stage-fright’ mental breakdown and if had taken a lie detector test right after the fight and said he got hammered, he would have passed — because he believed it; Michael Spinks came to fight (he threw like a dozen lead rights, which obviously was part of his game plan) but he was not only overmatched, he was scared. You can kind of see his eyes roll when Tyson misses him with a hook early on along the ropes. Ali mastered people mentally, got in their heads in other ways. Manipulated them — asking Foreman ‘is that all you got’ and ‘they told me you could punch’ or getting Frazier so mad he was seeing red and not thinking, making Sonny Liston think he was absolutely crazy, etc. Duran and Leonard and many other greats had a way of getting the mental edge. Holyfield is always, IMO, mentally bigger than Tyson. He went straight to him in the first fight and when they tied up he walked him back to the ropes or a corner to say ‘You’re not man-handling me, I’m man-handling you.’ When Tyson landed he came right back. IMO he put mental pressure on Tyson in ways that no one, Buster included, had ever done before ... probably in Tyson’s whole life. And it was relentless. That’s why I think any heavyweight version of Evander — let’s say after he acclimated himself to the division — beats Tyson. Yeah, maybe Holy didn’t look overwhelming against Dokes ... but he won. He didn’t look so hot against Bobby freaking Czyz in his tuneup before Tyson I but he was a different animal when the stage was elevated.
Fairly easily (as in by a wide margin), I think. Unless you’re going to define it and say Ray has to come in below 147 and LaMotta can weigh his usual 165 maybe. But if Ray gets to come in at a comfortable 150-ish and LaMotta has to make middle, Ray lands cleanly from start to finish and Jake only has spots of success cutting off the ring.
Roy Jones Jr is not an ATG... There, I said it. He’s an ATG talent, a first ballot HOFer, an easy pick for many mythical match-ups, but ultimately falls short of true ATG status due to a weak resume (compared to other ATGs) and never really overcoming adversity. In combat terms, Roy was not a warrior; he was more like an incredible sniper with a 100% kill rate. But when his custom made Lapua rifle and scope were taken from him and he had to resort to trench warfare he was whipped like a stubborn, rented mule.
He dominated James Toney (insert excuse here). He dominated Bernard Hopkins (insert excuse here). He broke Virgil Hill’s ribs (insert excuse here). Mike McCallum, Felix Trinidad, went from middleweight all the way to heavyweight winning titles, Lou Del Valle and a slew of other light heavies who had title claims or would have had RJJ not been around. He absolutely does not have a thin resume. I can name a dozen fighters considered ATGs who don’t have names like that on their resumes.
You’re either new to the sport or an obsessed jones fan. Why in the hell would you list Trinidad as some type of achievement? Are you ignorant to the time and circumstances of that fight? The other reasons you list are why I said he’s a first ballot HOFer. He’s not an ATG.
What I am real intrigued about is the short prime that Iron Mike Tyson had, was it the change in management, personal problems outside the ring, mental illness setting in? It is just that he was so dominating at such a young age. Maybe the desire was no longer there? I thought he would have further built up his reputation up to the stars, surpassing the likes of Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis.
No Jack, I’m not new. You’re a lot closer to rookie than me. I put Trinidad there because probably just about any ATG you can name has some big name or names on their resume that also, if you look under the hood, ain’t quite as impressive as it sounds ... and yet it helps them get on that ATG list. Greb, for instance, beat a boatload of “Hall of Famers” but a lot of them are in there as old-timers who never got voted in with their contemporaries, just also-rans who stayed on a ballot long enough that eventually they were basically grandfathered in — yet when people speak of Greb’s resume they get lumped in with ‘look at all the Hall of Famers he beat.’ Well Trinidad is a Hall of Famer who Jones beat — Felix was past-prime and so was Roy. And a lot of guys 100 years from now will be Hall of Famers who got in the same way. Tell us who you consider ATGs and list why and I’ll gladly compare Jones’ resume to theirs. Roy is an ATG because he was almost untouchable — as in hardly anyone could compete with him and even make it a fight — through three divisions and stepped up to grab him a heavyweight crown.
Thanks for the reply. I asked the original question with Sugar Ray Leonard fighting at the 147 limit facing the same LaMotta at 160 that knocked Robinson out of the ring and beat him in their second bout. LaMotta, who was only person to best Ray in his prime. Your response of “Leonard handling LaMotta with ease” begs the question. Do you think Sugar Ray Leonard is vastly greater than Robinson? The reason I say this is that Robinson has all that he could handle with Jake. But you believe Leonard has no problems at all. Leonard is giving away a lot of size and power against one of the toughest, meanest men to ever box. Now, I understand that styles make fights but Robinson moved much more effectively and efficiently, hit much harder than Leonard, with both hands, was equally as fast and still was put on the canvas by Jake 3 times. Thoughts..and thanks again.
