Stylistically, I give Leonard the edge because he would move more than SRR did in the first fight. Robinson wanted to set up in front of Jake and lead, then he would try to move when Jake came to him, but wasn’t always able to do so. I don’t see LaMotta as some great pressure fighter in this bout when I see what I’ve seen of it on film — plods in behind a good jab and throws more single potshots then works when he’s in close. Robinson stood flat-footed more than Leonard would — he sort of holds his ground in spots and then tries to move when Jake gets close, throwing a punch or combo and then stepping around. I see SRL fighting closer to the way he did in Duran II. I also think SRL would throw more blistering combinations of the type that Ray utilized in his series of wins over Jake. I don’t see him having no problems, just winning say 10 or 11 out of 15 rounds ... doesn’t mean none of them would be close or that Jake wouldn’t do his thing in about a third of the fight to an effective degree. And you also have to consider that the LaMotta who beat SRR that one time had been outboxed before and was an easy target for a good jab. I see SRL piling up points and not setting his feet often, just enough to launch an attack before gliding away. But I guess you can make a case either way obviously.
Robinson utilized lateral movement much more consistently than Leonard did. It was a built in aspect of his style. A trademark basically. With Leonard it all just depended on who he had in front of him. He was flat footed far more often than Robinson, though.
Thanks for the in depth analysis. I am wrestling with the idea that in principle I agree Leonard could move like a he did against Duran and win a clear decision. But that is only because of my deplorable ignorance of prime Jake and lack of film. My instinct tells me that Robinson probably had to stop and fight Jake off or be run over and because Robinson obviously had the firepower to stand and fire he was effective....at times. Because Leonard does not have any firepower that LaMotta needs to worry about...and I don’t see Leonard using his jab to score points, that sooner or later, he is going to have to fight a man like LaMotta with a 15 pound weight advantage, steel chin and body, underrated power and boxing skill. It could be a tough go for Leonard but not impossible. Great convo and open to more of your thoughts.
I must say, after having watched all of his fights up the Spinks again, with a careful eye, Mike should have been way greater than he ended up being. As far as potential goes, Mike had even more going for him early on than guys like Bowe and Lewis (which is one hell of a lot). But hey, he was youngest heavyweight ever, winning in spectacular fashion. I'm not sure even Dempsey was as incredibly ferocious as Mike in the ring. When he beat Spinks he looked invincible, and I think he could have stayed that way for another several years except for... well, I suspect you agree that it was probably a combination of things that led to Mike's decline. Still, he did win the title again and seemed to showcase his Championship Heart far more in his 90s incarnation.
I don’t disagree with that but I’m saying Leonard’s footwork was more fluid than Robinson’s or at least more versatile. SRR kind of set and then skipped around a guy and reengaged. Leonard could get on his bicycle more like Ali and work off his jab while circling, in and out and side to side. I think his mobility is different than Robinson’s and could be more effective against LaMotta.
And he was the first Middle to win a belt at Heavy in 106 years. Should have won Gold at the Olympics. Roy is most definitely an ATG.
Leonard movement never struck me a as effective. He just wasted energy dancing around the ring. The main example I will use is verses Hearns at welterweight. Leonard danced and danced and got nothing for his trouble but hard punches. Only when he had no choice but to fight did find an answer. Tommy’s chin. However he with his lack of power and LaMotta’s toughness he would not have the option to fight with LaMotta, unlike Robinson who could move just enough to be out of range but still lay a death blow. I say that precisely why Robinson chose to stop and fight. Because he had enough power to stop a man like LaMotta. He knew it and so did his opponents...including Jake. Example: Robinson verses Fulmer. Robinson danced just enough out of range to bring Fulmer in and flatten him with unspeakable left hook. Robinson is not just Leonard’s superior with movement around the ring. No, he was the superior and model for all who would move in all weight classes...as in Ali.
So you’re saying Robinson was superior to all fighters ever in all facets of the game? LOL. Then how did he ever lose? He’s one of the greatest P4P no doubt, but he was not perfect. Thomas Hearns was a particularly difficult puzzle. You have to be farther away to stay out of range — if you’re a few inches short of being able to hit him you’re in his wheelhouse (ask Duran). So it’s way outside or way inside. You can certainly see fights like Leonard-Duran II and III and Hagler where him being on the bicycle the whole time worked very well. He could reduce the round to a few exchanges that he would win and put it in the bank. You can also look at Leonard-Hearns II and others where he used footwork very similar to Robinson’s, taking a few slide steps here and there to control range (yes he deserved to lose the decision but he was also very effective in spots). SRL was a guy who could adjust in fights and adapt. Duran acknowledged that in calling Leonard the best he ever fought. Thomas Hearns experienced it first-hand. If you think Ray Leonard was a guy who only ran and ran then you need to look deeper into his career. And are you trying to tell me LaMotta could only be outboxed by SRR? Take a look at his record, including a loss to Jimmy Reeves where he got his face jabbed off and Tommy Yarovz where he deserved to lose by accounts because he was completely outboxed. You’ve already explained Robinson lost to LaMotta — in that loss, his lack of footwork and trying to skip around and stop and plant is what allowed Jake to have success. I’m saying Leonard doesn’t fight him that way. LaMotta wasn’t IMO particularly good at cutting off the ring, he was mostly a glutton who took punishment on his way in and then he tried to wear you down when he got there. Against SRL in my estimation, he would not ‘get there.’ I’ll also take issue with your characterization of Leonard’s punching power. He was no Earnie Shavers but he could hit hard enough to make anyone respect him and he could finish. Is he gonna stop LaMotta? No, that’s hard to do, maybe if he wears him down enough like Ray Robinson did and pours it on and makes the ref wave it off, but I doubt it. But you didn’t have to hit like a tank to keep Jake’s respect no matter how good his chin.
