Why do some people say Ali was at his 1970s best in the Fight of the Century?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by MorningSage, Jul 27, 2020.



  1. MorningSage

    MorningSage New Member Full Member

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    He certainly fought well in FOTC, but he was mostly flat footed. I think he was much more effective afterwards when he started incoporating dancing again, giving him a more mixed style. Look what happened in the second Norton fight when he did that.
     
  2. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I agree. In the 1970s, I always thought he looked best physically in the second Norton fight.
     
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  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Surprised I missed this post.

    You're just reiterating my point here, he didnt need it when his legs were at their best.

    As his legs became heavier he had to adapt to keep himself at the top of his game, and he did so effectively imo.

    Ali is a different beast from the Liston victory to the Foreman victory. But he's at the top of his game for them both.

    I'm honestly really surprised you don't think he made any improvents to compensate for his decreasing athleticism.

    As I've said, for me in the 70s he'd made sufficient technical improvements to compensate for having less movement. But against Frazier he was just in against the better man.
     
  4. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    As stated earlier, he was a good enough clincher to control both Liston and Chuvalo in the 60's. Both stronger than Frazier. And in FOTC, Frazier actually shrugged off a tired Ali, so I don't know what you're getting at and you wont' expand so...

    And no I see zero technical improvements between Folley and FOTC. Which isn't surprising since that's four years with only six months activity at the tail end. You talk about him standing against the ropes, but that was no tactical advantage, just a tired fighter shipping punishment. I haven't seen you expand on where you see any newfound skill in this.

    In Zaire, yes, we saw Ali doing something he hadn't really done before. But that's later. And Ali himself was clear on that he wasn't as good there as he was against Liston. And this shouldn't even be a debate about an ageing, war torn fighter whose main asset was his speed.

    Yes, of course Ali gained some experience in the 70's, but he wasn't a Hopkins or Moore - quite the opposite. He had top notch amateur pedigree and had before his lay-off already faced about as many ranked fighters as Frazier and several other greats did in their whole careers.

    So the narrative that he would decline less with age than most fighters - despite that he already was very experienced and more reliant on speed than most - is quite absurd imo.

    I can see the argument that FOTC was the best version of him in the 70's, though. Not sure it was, but an argument can definitely be made.
     
  5. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Ok, I'm gonna go about this the best way I can explain it to you.

    We are both saying he changed his style as he aged.

    I think he was still at the top of his game, you don't.

    A bit like when two people look at a piece of art. 1 sees a bunch of colours, the other sees something worth millions.

    All the things you are saying, about how he had to fight off the ropes more, move less etc, I'm saying that as well.

    I think the way he fought in the 70s he was as good as he was in the 60s. From 64 to 75 he was at the top of his game even though he changed his style.
     
  6. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No, no really.

    I'm saying - over and over again - that him standing against the ropes and shipping punishment in FOTC didn't have to with a tactical choice or a change of style, it was forced on him by Joe's excellent pressure but also his legs not being the same anymore.

    If we look at the whole 70's, it was mainly that he like every fighter who ages and slows moved a bit less and a bit slower. Not a change in style as much as natural progression like any ageing fighter. The gradually declining speed and mobility actually effected him worse than other fighters since speed and mobility were his main assets.



    We agree that he did something in Zaire that he hadn't done before. But that doesn't mean that he couldn't have done it before. Actually it was something he had practiced since the 60's.

    It also doesn't mean that he hadn't been better off if he could have executed plan A as well as the 60's version. Actually, we know that he himself thought that he would have been better off if he still had the speed to move as he used to.

    And I still don't understand what you think he did in FOTC that he couldn't have done four years before. He could already clinch - so not that. Exactly what was it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
  7. cuchulain

    cuchulain VIP Member Full Member

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    It WAS a very good win for Frazier.

    IMO, it was, and still stands as, the best single win in the history of the heavyweight division.

    Joe beat the greatest HW of all time.

    Admittedly, that was not the vest version of Ali, as the best version we have seen of him was in the mid sixties, pre-exile.

    And had he been allowed to continue fighting rather than being stripped of his title and refused boxing licenses, my guess is that he would have hit his absolute peak sometime in late 1968 or early 1969.

    Nevertheless, the version that Frazier faced was still very formidable in 1971, and it is this win that has Joe in my top 10. Without this win, he would not have that distinction.
     
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  8. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Well said
     
  9. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The best version of Ali, using my eye test was the 1967 model. He was incredible. Now could that version have beaten Frazier? of course he COULD have . That doesn't mean he would have, Joe made Ali fight with his pressure and for a single night Joe 's gonna beat him. The Frazier that fought him in 1971 left a lot of himself in the ring to do it.
     
  10. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Natural progression, change in tactics, learning new techniques. Call it what you want. It's still something that happened as his athleticism declined and as a result, he was still the best HW in the world, still at the top of his game. Its a semantical argument at this point.

    I've been over what changes I felt he made in the 70s to improve himself given his decline in athleticism in previous posts.

    But yes I'm glad we agree Fraziers excellent pressure caused him issues. It always would imo.
     
  11. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Wouldn't Max Schmeling victory over prime Louis be more impressive by these criteria?
     
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  12. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    IMHO, we never got to see the best version of Muhammad Ali
     
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  13. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    This. Throughout Ali's mid/late '60s title defences, he seemed to be getting better with each one made. He was gaining the experience and toughness he'd later rely on whilst still having the freakish speed, talent and ability that defined his style in the '60s. I think had the War never interfered with Ali's career you would've seen the perfect blend and mix of his key attributes from the 70s and 60s. Ahh, a sight to behold it would've been.
     
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  14. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    I agree that Ali's compensations were not enough to make up for the athleticism-& endurance was not mentioned, being able to dance for 15 rounds-that he lost.

    But Ali got hit plenty by Liston in their first fight.
    The bout was pretty even, though it should be noted that being blinded by the substance on Liston's gloves or body played a part, & when his eyes cleared Ali began to dominate.

    Ali was still rusty but great in FOTC, even better '72-'74, & best '67-'68.
     
  15. cuchulain

    cuchulain VIP Member Full Member

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    Great minds think alike, don't they Clinton ! :D
     
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