Early 90s Tyson would wreck Liston in a slug fest

No, I don't. Do you have any stupid, out of topic questions?

 

Agreed 100%

 

next time ask me for permission to quote me in a message if I haven't spoken to you first.

 

No, I won't. Why should I?

 

All due respect, you want to say Tyson has every advantage then call other people biased? What was so unreasonable about my post?

 

I only brought up end of career Tyson because the discussion was chins so it was relevant to look at all the moments where they got hurt.

What is really irritating in discussing Tyson h2h is that people will say "look how Tyson took tons of bombs from the gigantic Lennox Lewis" and apply that to a prime Tyson but if you use any moment in a negative light beyond his 1st retirement, people say "ThAt WaS a PaSt PrImE tYsOn It DoEsNt CoUnT". So if we're conveniently dismissing Tyson's last 3 brutal stoppage losses we can certainly dismiss a 40 year old heroin addict Liston's sole KO loss.

Point being Liston has shown to be far more durable over the stretch of his career.

As for Douglas, he was 6'3-6'4. I met him in person. No tale of the tape ever had him 6'5. And yes he was 230+ lbs but he was also very stocky and flabby, that extra chunkyness didn't make him hit harder. None of this changes the fact he was never known as some sort of power puncher and Tyson was his sole elite KO win.

Of course Liston would be in trouble if he stood there eating bomb after bomb from Douglas. Most HW's would. But Liston wouldn't be standing there forced to eat jabs and uppercuts all night whole Douglas dominated on the outside. It would be a completely different fight as Liston had a much longer reach than Tyson, had a jab that was 20x better, could actually box from more than just one range, and wouldn't have just went into his shell submitting, he would have been more aggressive.

It's a lot harder to stop a determined opponent who brings the fight to you even if you have a great jab vs am opponent that allows you to just keep you at the end of their jab. Look at Samuel Peter bulldozing Wladmir Klitschko with nothing but raw determination in spite of Wladmir's ATG jab.

Yes Holyfield's power was underrated, but both Mercer and Bowe stood back up (Mercer actually took a knee, he wasn't dropped heavily) and both were more surprised than badly hurt--they were flash knock downs. He couldn't put a dent in old ass Holmes or Foreman. Cooper took like 20 unanswered punches and remained on his feet. He had to hit Moore with everything but the kitchen sink to stop him. Holyfield simply wasn't an ATG banger. He hit hard enough to get your respect and to stop c level heavies, but that's it. His power came from his accuracy, aggression, and volume and neither he nor Douglas hit even remotely in the ball park of prime Liston (nor were they as aggressive or as good at finishing).

Never said Liston would just walk through Holyfield's shots, I said Holyfield would definitely get stopped if he fought too aggressively on the front foot like he did jn the 1st Bowe fight. I think Foreman is just about the only man that could survive trading with Liston and he still might lose due to his stamina issues.

Spinks and Marvis are pretty bad examples to use as evidence of Tyson's destructive power when they were blown up light heavies and probably around the size of Floyd Patterson and Eddie Machen without weight lifting. Spinks had to basically eat his way up and do all kinds of intense strength training to get that size. Neither were really built for heavy weight (especially Marvis, who got brutally stopped by Holmes as well). Spinks was very skinny with narrow shoulders and no abs even as a light heavy and was built like a high school English teacher well into his 20's.

Holmes was a good KO, can't take it away from Tyson. But facts are facts. He was flabby, coming off 2 losses and inactive. He had NO burning desire to win like the old Holmes who fought the fight of the year with Norton or who got off the floor to stop Shavers in a gruelling war. It's comparable to Rocky vs Louis or Joshua vs Wladmir. A passing of the torch to the next generation fight.

Better examples for Tysons power would have been KOing the rugged and durable Berbick in just 2 rounds, impressively dropping a prime Alex Stewart 3x in round 1, or hitting Golota so hard he had spinal damage and quit in the 2nd round. I'll take that over a bunch of skinny thin necked light heavies and inactive flabby old men.

Tyson had great speed and was accurate, true, but he was also predictable and could be times. He followed the same patterns of the peak a boo system over and over. @Gazelle Punch brought up some interesting stats about how Liston was shockingly good at making his opponents miss and block.

Tyson had decent defense but he used his head movement and counters to hide the fact his guard was very basic and relatively easy to pick apart.

 

I am being honest , and you know that i am no Tyson fanboy. I can deal with somebody saying that Liston had more strength, better outside work, better jab. But nothing more.
To me Tyson was more skilled and clearly, faster clearly too, his defence was much better and he was much better inside too and of course in the mid range

 

The stats don’t say Tyson was better defensively. Both had opponents with different skill sets so maybe it’s harder to gauge different eras but most of it really just depends on style. Tyson probably punched harder as he threw far less punches then Liston. But that also brings up the point of Tyson’s poor stamina issues.

 

The thread title is "Tyson would wreck Liston in a slug fest". When Exactly did Tyson win a slug fest?

The closest examples we have of Tyson duking it out with aggressive boxers letting their hands go were Bruno, Berbick, Ruddock, Stewart, Douglas, and Holyfield. Everyone else either was simply fighting to survive or using negative tactics to drain Tyson and keep him at their preferred range.

Bruno made a serious effort for like 1 round and then went into survival mode: constantly clinching, rabbit punching, and using spoiling tactics to survive and ended up against the ropes covering up before being stopped. Hardly the stuff of legends and hardly an example of a slug fest. One guy was a tiger on the hunt, the other was a deer fleeing.

Berbick was an impressive KO but it lasted less than 2 rounds and he barely offered much resistance. This isn't Tyson's fault and hardly a criticism, it was one of the best title winning efforts. But...what exactly did Berbick hit Tyson with in this fight?

I Could say the same thing about Stewart. Again, great stoppage. But the deceptive 90% ko ratio of Alex Stewart would make you think this was some sort of competitive slug fest. It wasn't. Watch the fight, he barely lands anything and gets dropped 3x for an auto stoppage (3 knockdown rule) in 1 round if I recall correctly.

Holyfield brutally stopped Tyson and man handled him.

Douglas used his head as a speed bag and neatly decapitated him with uppercuts and right crosses. Tyson made a last ditch effort with his own upper but he lost this fight. Highly entertaining scrap, but not something you'd want to use to make your case for Tyson beating Liston (or any strong competent HW) in a slug fest.

All that's left is Ruddock. 1st fight was a premature stoppage, but let's just give Tyson a pass on that one since its the ref's job to give a good call. 2nd fight, Tyson landed like 6 low blows and got 2 points deducted I believe. Even in the final round Mills Lane kept yelling at him in exasperation. Tyson took some brutal bombs in a fight where he should have been disqualified if we're being brutally honest.

So out of all the aggressive opponents who brought tbe fight to Tyson, we can only really give 1 example where he won a slug fest. And that opponent had no defense whatsoever, constantly loaded up for 1 shot, neglected his right hand, and managed to go 12 rounds despite his testicles looking like a bag of grapes after being sat on by a 300 pound house wife.

Let's not forget Tyson never got off the floor to win, frequently fouled when things weren't going his way, had suspect stamina, and was terrible on the inside.

Liston is the last person you want to intentionally foul, was great on the inside, mid range, and outside, had good stamina for a slugger, had a granite chin, had a single legitimate knockdown in his entire career, had power in both hands, was a tremendous body puncher, and attacked like a shark smelling blood if he detected even an ounce of weakness. He fought through broken noses and broken jaws, and has in fact won slug fests.

I'm not convinced.

 

Or you want to ride horse with shirtless Tyson behind you together because you are homo?

 

I'll grant you that Tyson faced generally bigger and harder hitting opponents.

But that's sort of cancelled out by the fact Liston was hurt less often and knocked down less. You can't just gloss over that. You can't give Tyson credit for facing larger and harder hitting opponents and then ignore the fact he got stopped 5x!

This is what I mean when I say Tyson fans try to have it both ways.

I'm still waiting for proof Tyson could survive a slug fest. Yes Tyson had fast hand and great power, but his arms were also incredibly short. Liston's enormous arms means that at MID RANGE if they are exchanging he will land first due to basic physics and anatomy. Tyson's speed is only a factor when he is building momentum with his head movement and throwing crisp punches with angles--not trading in a straight up brawl.

 

There comes a time when one simply says i was wrong. Looks are deceiving you and that is backed up by factual evidence. There is no wriggle room mate.

 

liston lose to ali it's not determine liston's chin & heart, its not rellevan..
ali is a slick boxer the fastest hw, fast hand, & move so fast that make liston frustated.
everyone can frustated against the greatest HW on his first title fight.
second Ali fight arguably liston took a dive..

VS leotis martin is liston's end carreer & his last fight he can beat contender in chuck wepner.
Wepner received over 100 stitches to his face after the bout.

it;s simillar to Tyson we can judge his chin & heart by second holyfield fight ear bitting.

That's why i say liston chin, toughness, & heart are underrated in this matchup..
he will not intimidated by Tyson..