Early 90s Tyson would wreck Liston in a slug fest

LOL @ you.....get hysterical much ?

If you would have been around when this Super Killer of Killers Liston reigned you would have been in for a rude awakening......becau Liston was person non grata in the Boxing World and the public world after his two quit jobs.........became a non entity and never ever got close to title contention, did not even try.

Only in your deluded history revisionism is your Hero who OD'd on H almost 50 years ago some kind of a fighter of all fighters......in his time ok ......but 100% unproven against Super Heavies and the first one he met he looked for the exit quick

 

Patterson did not "keep getting up" in their first bout. In The first bout he went down once, and he stayed down. The 2nd time, he got up twice before being flattened. Patterson's recuperative abilities were amazing as well seeing as Ingo had to drop him 7 times to finally stop him, so the fact that you're using this in an argument against Liston's power is laughable.

Especially seeing as Holmes got up twice against Tyson, and Tyson needed nearly the entire round to catch up to him, and only did so because Holmes' arm got stuck in the rope. Had that not happened, he would've certainly survived the round.

Spinks also got up once.

Bruno got up twice and was never "counted out to 10"

Foreman put Frazier down SIX times and still failed to put him down for the count. Are we going to argue Foreman couldn't punch now? What a riduculous notion!

Funny you seem to omitted these inconvenient facts.

Again as I've stated to Charlietf. Every common oppenent of Liston and Foreman picked Liston as the harder puncher while no common oppenents picked Tyson above an older Foreman. Also numerous men who saw them both and trained with both (Johnny Tocco) said Liston was the much harder puncher.

We've had this discussion ad nausem and it's become quite clear you know nothing about Williams. You used Satterfield knocking out a green, underdeloped, untested Williams who took the fight on short notice against him in H2H matchups and tried to use it against him. When I exposed this, you started making up flat out lies, that Williams lost to men smaller than Marciano at which point I stopped taking you seriously.

Now I know you absolutely know jack **** about Williams. He DID make it to the top of the division. He was an elite contender and drew with the highest rated heavyweight at the time not named Sonny Liston in a fight most thought (including one judge and the AP) thought that he won. Roy Harris (who fought Sonny Liston and sparred with Cleveland Williams), calls Cleveland Williams his most dangerous and toughest opponent was "when I sparred with Cleveland Williams." http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Ken/Hissner030911.htm

"But at one point in his career, he would have spelled real problems for Ali, because at his height as a puncher, Cleveland Williams hit harder than Liston. Before he got shot, the man was awesome But afterwards, he wasn't much of a fighter.. " Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=DfcPAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT134&lpg=PT134&dq="williams+hit+harder+than+liston"&source=bl&ots=U_vhYf34f8&sig=ACfU3U0-9tFME4JqtaE-xx34tjfj1d-8XA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqlYTguIHqAhUeRDABHQPoDhYQ6AEwAXoECAMQAQ

Ernie Terrell (Who fought Williams twice and sparred with Liston)
His toughest opponent: Cleveland Williams
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-pleAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vVINAAAAIBAJ&pg=4798,539251&dq=&hl=en
:"He was the strongest fighter I ever fought"
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/6048-ernie-terrell-chicagos-heavyweight-champion
"His left hook is poison."
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Sy8_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=9lAMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3337,4585601&dq=&hl=en

Sonny Liston:......"Williams hit very hard and he was quick"
"He hit as hard as I could."

https://books.google.com/books?id=9...hUKEwjz2eGWs7XpAhWIg-AKHZlGCKgQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ

"two of William's losses came at the hands of Liston, who has said Williams was the hardest puncher he has ever met." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/51090697/sioux-city-journal/

"Williams hit Liston with a left hook that would have finished any other man It would have torn some fighters heads off." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54152307/fort-lauderdale-news/

Where are similar testimonials to Weaver's power?

I used to think you were wasting everyone's time with trying to be a comedian but I see why you do it now. When you're serious, you portray your ignorance, lack of knowledge, deception, and dishonesty so you put on this "funny" guy (news flash; you're not actually funny.... AT. ALL.) persona to try to cover it up. I truly feel sorry for you.

 

Liston hitting harder than Foreman is a joke basically, chuck wepner got stopped very early by a green 3-0 or 4-0 Foreman(not a prime version) and he lasted 9 or 10 rounds with Liston. Chuck could say that he saw an UFO flying.

 

1-yes, Tyson beat modern sized guys who could punch. As I have demonstrated and explained 3x now, he rarely got nailed by said punchers. Are You denying historical facts? Bruno, Smith, golota, etc didn't land jack ****--partly because Tyson was faster and had better defense. He blew them out very quickly or they used ugly survival tactics and held on. The few times Tyson's chin was tested he was badly rocked and stopped by guys who WERENT devastating hitters. That's the part you keep ignoring. Holyfield and especially Douglas were above average hitters at best.

2-that is not true. Patterson hit very hard by cruiserweight standards. Zora Folley had a very respectable right hand with a lot of zip on it. Leotis Martin was a very hard puncher and was on a top 100 punchers list. Mike Dejohn was compared to Foreman in terms of pure hitting power by Chuvalo. Nino Valdez had very good power. Williams of course hit very hard but wasn't the most skilled in terms of delivering it. All of these boxers would be very hard hitters by modern cruiser standards. Valdez, Dejohn, and Williams were all 62-6'3 and could easily compete at heavyweight considering they were lean and shredded without lifting weights or using Peds. Their power would definitely carry over with a 220 frame.

It's easy to tell when someone is biased when they trash every opponent for one boxer and hype up evert opponent for the other. I have been very fair and consistent with Tyson and gave him plenty of props throughout this thread and never discredited his opponents.

3-Liston was a different type of puncher from Tyson. He was a bludgeoning/heavy handed puncher. Tyson was an explosive puncher who used a lot of snap and speed. I can actually pull up more than a dozen quotes and interviews where opponents of Tyson say he wasn't the hardest hitter they faced, it was the speed and combinations that got you.

4-Tyson never faced a single decent boxer puncher either, let alone one like Liston who had great stamina and power in both hands with a heavy jab. They both bring something to the table neither have seen.

5-well it's simple. The reason Tyson is picked over Rocky is styles. Rocky would be fighting fire with fire. He's not only smaller than Tyson, he slower, sloppier, lacks defense, and only knows to fight coming forward. It isn't ONLY because of the weight difference (unless you're one of those idiots who think size=everything).

If Rocky were 6'4 and 230 lbs but fought the same way with all those negative qualities, I'd still pick Tyson to win. The closest modern example would be Derreck Chisora or Jarrel Miller. I'd pick Tyson to destroy both of them due to the clash of styles.

6-hold on, I'm not one of those people who dismiss all the big men from older eras as oafs. I think Joe Louis and Dempsey would demolish a lot of guys from today's era. I just think certain skilled elite super heavies like Lennox and Wladmir would be too much for them.

7-I think Rocky had better endurance than Liston and I do give him the benefit of the doubt to an extent, but the biggest issue people have with Rocky is so many of his opponents were pretty mediocre even by old standards. His best 4 opponents (Louis, Charles, Moore, Walcott) were all VERY shopworn and in their mid to late 30's, yet they were the most dominant and highest ranked fighters of that era. When did that ever happen in the history of heavyweight boxing? It shows it was a weak era if 2 of the 4 best fighters literally moved up from light heavyweight and all 4 of them are past their prime.

Liston's era wasnt the strongest either, but he at least was fighting men in their primes and who weren't shopworn with double digit losses. I guess that's the biggest difference. Rocky also never continued fighting well into his 40's like Liston nor was he a depressed alcoholic and heroin addict. Both had solid chins but If give Rocky a slight edge in terms of toughness and endurance due to his style and heart. I give them both the benefit of the doubt to a degree, but Liston was 6'1 and fought between 212-220ish while Rocky fought at 185-190ish. There are several boxers Liston's size who successfully competed in the modern era such as Holyfield, Mercer, Hide, Byrd, Chisora, Ruiz, etc. There are no stubby armed 5'10 sluggers Rocky's size who have made a dent in the division since the 50's.

As for Ezzard Charles, like Rocky he wasn't really built for the modern heavyweight division. The guy competed professionally as a middleweight for crying out loud. Its amazing he did as well as he did despite being old with ALS. He was quite the overachiever. I have nothing but respect for Charles but it would look similar to Marquez vs Mayweather if he tried to fight modern giants. At cruiserweight, a prime Charles and Rocky could definitely make names for themselves and would be top contenders and champions. They were just too small naturally for a lot of the skilled big men.

 

Tyson quit in the most humiliating display of unprofessionalism in the history of sports. He bit Holyfield because he knew he was about to get his ass kicked again. The same Holyfield who was 4 years older than Tyson and who had been in brutal wars with Bowe, Cooper, Dokes, etc. Tyson wanted to find a way out of there, that's what the ear bite was about.

If a shopworn Holyfield intimidated Tyson I'm 100% certain Liston would have made Tyson as quiet as a mouse in a bear's cave at the press conference. Tyson wanted nothing to do with Lennox and paid him step aside money. He wanted nothing to do with an old as dirt Foreman. Douglas completely shattered that so called aura of intimidation and viciousness in Tokyo and exposed him as a mentally and emotionally broken man trying to convince the world he was a bad ass savage when what he really needed was therapy and a drug counselor.

 

Eduardo Ayala was stopped by Antoine Byrd in 6 rounds yet took Julian Jackson the distance one fight prior. Does this mean Byrd hit harder?

You mention Foreman being green but no mention of Sonny being in his last fight and less than a month off 40 years old.

Scap Iron said Liston hit harder as well. An ancient over the hill Liston dropped him in the first and battered him into submission in the 7th. Two fights later Foreman (19-0) didn't drop him or hurt him before the fight was stopped on a cut in the 7th with Scrap Iron in otherwise fine condition.

Both Liston and Foreman are probably on the same tier power wise - the TOP tier.

 

It's funny how someone like Bonecrusher Smith is mentioned here as an example of modern murderous SHW puncher, yet people dismiss guys like Buddy Baer because they fought in 1930s and 1940s. Smith was the definition of "oaf" - slow, not athletic, zero head movement, stone feet...

 

No, I wouldn't go that far but he was quite good. Better than most people make him out to be here.

 

Foreman was harder puncher than Liston WITH BOTH HANDS ,stronger man ,got a better chin,bigger heart and has greater legacy.

 

Again, you previously lied about Williams losing to men smaller than Marciano, tried to make a case that Williams was NOT green, untested, underdevoloped and still growing when he took on Satterfield on a 2 day notice, and was not aware that Williams WAS an elite contender in his own era. I don't really care what you think of him, you're not an objective nor knowledgable poster at all which is why you're refusing to engage with my post. You know you will lose and lose badly.