Did you just liken Machen and Patterson to Joe Frazier and Ken Norton? LOL. What was Machen’s best win? Zara Foley? How did he do against The Greatest? Frazier and Norton both have wins against Ali and gave him hell in other battles. And have beaten all-around better fighters than Machen ever beat. If not for Floyd’s fragile chin, Ingo is a guy who landed one big punch against a guy who at the time was a really good prospect (Machen) but who never really stepped up to show himself a championship-caliber fighter. Ingo had two good wins — the Machen one is only remarkable because it happened early, as Machen did not go on and accomplish just a whole lot. The Patterson win is nice but Floyd spent more time in close proximity to the canvas than Pablo Picasso. Patterson got knocked down in the first round by an amateur (Rademacher) and if you can find me a heavyweight champ who got knocked down more times than Floyd I’d like to see it.
At that time ingo beat the best two in the world by knockout. Whenever anyone beats the best two in the division by knockout, you can’t really do better than that. It’s the most anyone can do. With hindsight you can say Frazier and Norton were better than Machen and Patterson but not at that time, it didn’t get any better than Machen and Patterson in 1959. Frazier and Norton were not around until much later. Just like in 1973 you could not do better than knocking out Frazier and Norton. Foreman is rightly celebrated for that.
With all due respect,sure Floyd was decked by guys like Pete Rademacher, Roy Harris, Ingo, Liston and Ali in round 6, in 1965. But he did face big punchers in George Chuvalo, in 1965, and Oscar Ringo Bonavena, in 1972, both impressive wins. He even beat Eddie Machen in July 1964. Patterson went 15 with Jimmy Ellis on Sept 14 1968, many thought Floyd won, including myself. Ron Lyle was badly outpointed by Jerry Quarry on Feb 9 1973.
Just to expand i give him a punchers chance more because Floyd's durability could be average than anything else. When the quality of opposition rose Ron didn't get much done in the KO stakes. He'd struggle with Floyd's hand speed and skill and Floyd could whack enough to potentially stop Ron as well IMO. It's a good match.
Floyd also got decked by Quarry four times in two fights, losing one and drawing in the other. So neither he nor Lyle beat Quarry, but one got (as usual) bounced off the canvas like a basketball by him. And Lyle also beat RIngo, right? Chuvalo? Or is it ChuvaLOL? Tough guy, absorbed punches like a sponge. But did he ever beat anyone of note? Hey, Floyd accomplished more than Lyle in their careers, no doubt. (I do maintain that a lot of his historical significance is precisely because he got bet by a pedestrian one-hit wonder, Ingo, and thus won the title back ... sort of like celebrating Ali for splitting with Leon Spinks as if losing the first one makes winning the second one a great accomplishment.) But I picture Foreman-Patterson looking a lot like Liston-Patterson, while Ron Lyle took Big George life and death. Ali knocked George down but it was from exhaustion not power. Who else ever sent George crashing like that? All I’m saying is: 1) Floyd’s chin is absolutely certified and documented to be vulnerable. 2) Lyle had power. Thus I don’t think it’s a big leap to say Lyle could knock him out. Not that it’s a sure thing, but that a big, imposing, hard-hitting guy like Lyle could definitely pull it off.
You didn’t make that post in 1959. You made it with the benefit of hindsight. You just conveniently decided not to use it. You could make an argument that Floyd and Norton are at least in the same tier, but to equate Machen to Norton and Frazier is just a bad look. If not for Patterson’s glass jaw, Ingo is a one-hit wonder. All credit to the Swede for taking advantage of the opportunity, but come on.
Lyle, all day money. Lyle hit roughly as hard as Liston, and both hands were equally dangerous. He was also pretty much as tough (if not tougher) than Liston. Patterson might make it 4...I doubt it.
Your statement was that against big punchers, Floyd didn't know how to fight and would be knocked out. The only person who knocked out Floyd, who he didn't return the favor against was Sonny Liston who would've beaten but (imo less than) a handful of heavyweights.
I just can't see Patterson taking more than a few flush power punches from Lyle. And he's going to land sooner or later. Patterson should have given Liston his title shot many months before he did. I don't think many will disagree here that Liston was the best heavyweight in the world before Patterson won back the title.
Anyone who thinks Lyle was some shoe in to KO Patterson should track down and watch his two fights with an old overweight light heavyweight Gregorio Peralta. Particularly their second fight in which Lyle was in his prime. Forget about what the AP said, he tried his damndest to put Peralta away and couldnt and everytime he cornered him Peralta fought his way out like a terrier. Patterson was a hell of a lot better and more dangerous than Peralta, he had a lot more tools as well.
How do you figure? When Liston became the top contender he got arrested for accosting a woman in a park at 3am while impersonating a police officer. That caused him to lose his rating temporarily and put his career on hold. When he finally got the top spot back he and Patterson negotiated in the winter time for a big summer fight in a ballpark which put the fight at least 6 months out but earned everyone more money. These things dont just happen in a bubble, there is context to how all of this went down.
I wish you would write the definitive book on Patterson. You consistently come up with little known, salient facts.
